Release From Oaths?

The noble Order of the Knights of Jubal traces its origins back to the Year Two Thousand A.D., when a group of distinguished persons of good and true character, founded the order to promote chivalry and honour. The order takes its name from our leader, Alexander Jubal McRae, who on two (so far) occasions has been seriously injured, in one case fatally, defending an innocent woman from attackers.

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Postby Sir Greg on Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:55 am

I can't say that I agree with you on this, Treespeaker.<P>There is a difference between helping people because they need help, and helping people "because they deserve it".<P>I don't know the history of this homeless person you speak of. I don't know why he lives on the street, begging for money so that he can eat, but I am almost certain of one thing. It's not because he likes it.<P>There is a saying, "Do not judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes."<P>"To assist and defend others" means to help them if they need it. Not necessarily because they deserve it. Possibly <I>because</I> they don't deserve it.<P>One of the noteably days of the Order is Good Samaritan Involvement Day. (March 13th) It commemorates the day when Kitty Genovese was stalked and stabbed to death in Queens, NY. 38 of her neighbours saw it and did nothing because it "wasn't their problem."<P>She may or may not have deserved help. But she needed it that day. And no-one provided it.<P>Whether or not the homeless man deserves help or not, one day he's not going to be there, because no-one gave him any money for food.<P>But, as you say, he possibly doesn't deserve it, since he doesn't seem to better himself. If he dies of starvation, maybe enough people thought he didn't deserve to eat.<P>Because every person who walked on the other side of the street, everyone who looked the other way, they all felt that it "wasn't their problem."<P>
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Postby redwulf25_ci on Tue Jan 22, 2002 12:32 pm

I would ask, who are we to decide who <b>deserves</b> help? Are we all knowing so that we may tell how someone came to be in the situation they are in? Can we simply look at someone and know that they want to change and lack only the means to do so? Can we know if they are honestly doing the best they can with what they have? It is purest arrogence to assume that we can know if someone deserves our aid or not and in my opinion it is the <b>duty</b> of those who are strong to defend the weak, those who have to aid those who have not, for those who <b>can</b> to give aid to those who <can not</b>. This is to my mind the very essence of chivalry. <P>------------------
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Postby Atlas_v1.1 on Tue Apr 09, 2002 3:32 am

Need does equal deserving. He is in trouble, and a Jubalite would be oathbound (by the third paragraph of the oath) to help him. However, that help should come in the form of guiding him toward self-improvement. And if the same situation arises again, try again. One thing no knight should have is a short patience. If you 'save' even ONE 'soul' in this fashion, you are vindicated for all the work you have done.
That he has done little or no work on his own is not necessarily 'his own fault'. It may be due to any number of factors, such as low self-esteem, having his time taken up by other things, etc. If he spends all his time hanging on a street corner instead of studying algebra, then, perhaps something else is wrong. But until you have something equivalent to proof on it, you are not in a position to judge whether or not he should be helped. Could be that he cannot abide to stay at home for very long on account of parents, thus precluding his doing his homework, thus limiting what he gets out of classes, etc. Check all possibilities. Leave no stone unturned if you wish to discern who is needy and who is not.
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Postby Atlas_v1.1 on Tue Apr 09, 2002 4:00 am

Ah, so there were TWO pages to this thread! :smile: A small addendum, then:

The bum on the street needs your help, that much is certain... excepting a few cases where said bum is a fraud trying to hoist money from people, which is very often seen here in Denmark... And begging on the street is illegal (and unnecessary) here.

He qualifies for 'needy', which is the wording of the oath. Whether he is deserving of help is a full time job to ascertain, just like it is with the classmate problem.

This is the problem with being a man (or woman) of honor. It is easy enough to swear when noone is needy. When need arises for people like us, that is when honor becomes difficult. Keeping truth when lying would be easier, fighting when laying down were easier, striving on in spite of resistance, is what honor is about. It is what chivalry means. If we let that fall, we fall ourselves with it. This must not happen.
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