Bursting my bubble...

The noble Order of the Knights of Jubal traces its origins back to the Year Two Thousand A.D., when a group of distinguished persons of good and true character, founded the order to promote chivalry and honour. The order takes its name from our leader, Alexander Jubal McRae, who on two (so far) occasions has been seriously injured, in one case fatally, defending an innocent woman from attackers.

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Postby Seldom on Wed Oct 03, 2001 12:24 am

Hello again, Jubalians... I am engaging in an exercise suggested to me by Eric the Blind, a friend and comrade of mine, who is in a similar physical state. He has warned me of the tendency of the immobile to become isolated in "bubbles"; routines that allow them to ignore truth and daily life in favor of remaining morose or ignorant. While I do not feel I have fallen into any such routines, he recommends that I take every opportunity to expose myself to new information and new situations requiring an intelligent response. So, since some of you expressed an interest in what I think, know, or am capable of quoting, I offer this thread. Think of it as an "Ask Seldom" thread... I will provide my honest responses to any question you ask or issue you bring up... Up to and including information on the Three Orders now at my discretion. So, hit me with your best shot... it certainly can't hurt me.<P>
-Seldom
Knight of the Three Orders<P>"What is wisdom?" asked the student.<P>"What is not wisdom?" replied the master.<P>"If I am to live in a chair, damnit, it's going to be a comfy chair!"
-Eric the Blind, on priorities.<P>"And Lo, though I am the child of a broken world, my dream is whole, and so, therefore, becomes the future.."
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Postby zodo on Wed Oct 03, 2001 1:25 am

I thank you for your response to my question. It honors me that you find my inquiries challenging.<P>In response to your ethical dilemma: On the first part, where those that made these attacks believe that they are attacking the government because every participant in a democracy is by definition part of the government, if that was indeed their motivations, they are incorrect. The United States is not a democracy, but a Constitutional Republic. The individual citizen is not an active participant in government. Active particpation comes in choosing who governs those citizens. Therefore, the average citizen does not carry the same weight as a congressperson, in terms of political or military 'weight'. The congressperson was selected by thousands of people to be their voice.<P>On the other side of the coin, the United States, accompanied by its allies, are going to retaliate. There is no question about this. What has been the question since the incidents occurred was the scope of the retaliation. On the day of the attacks, there was much talk of War (with a capital W)and of turning nation-states into parking lots. The United States was hurt, and the United States was angry. I personally was hoping that our leaders would have the restraint to retaliate only against the perpetrators of these foul acts, and not against innocents who were not directly involved. Fortunately this restraint was possessed by the leaders of the U.S., outlined by President Bush's "Calm and Resolute" speech. I feel that this was an act perpetrated by individuals, or a small group, and that the action that is take should be focused against them.<P>As for the statements that we will wage war against any who harbor these terrorists? I still feel something of a dread about that. Again, I hold hope that the leaders of my country will continue to have wisdom in this issue.<P>-Zodo, CI
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Postby Silver Adept on Wed Oct 03, 2001 5:22 am

Thank you for your response. I'm sure there's a question that we'd all like for you to be able to answer: How do we become part of the Three Orders, if we're interested? <P>But that question likely does not have an answer that you can tell us.<P>However, regarding figures, I do belive that the estimated amount of missing/dead is approximately 6,700. That means, however, that if you subtract that number from the capacity of the World Trade Centers, (which I believe is 50,000 persons) you have those who could have been involved or were and managed to escape. <P>As for governmental moves, it is likely that the American People will welcome some restrictions if it increases their feeling of security. They would trade some freedoms to keep this from happening again. How far? I don't know. <P>I still refrain from placing my opinions on "The Aftermath" of this event on the essay section of my website, because in my opinion, it's not over yet. The Administration is showing restraint, however, and is attempting to at lest justify itself before it moves. It still may move incorrectly, however...<P>And so my next quesion appears. What will the Three Orders do from here about this?
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Postby Silver Adept on Wed Oct 03, 2001 5:26 am

All right... being a curious Seeker of Knowledge and Religion, I'll open the panel. <P>Is it possible to tell us just how many people are a part of at least one of the Three Orders?
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Postby Atlas_v1.1 on Wed Oct 03, 2001 5:32 am

I am glad that you give us such an opportunity, friend Seldom. I have onee question I've been meaning to ask you:<P>Do the Three Orders operate in Europe? If so, do they operate in Denmark in any way? I am trying to figure out what kind of basis chivalry has in this fair country you see.
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Postby zodo on Wed Oct 03, 2001 5:53 am

When presented with an opportunity to drink from a fount of wisdom such as that you have shown yourself to be, it would be foolish of me, in my opinion, to not partake. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>First, I would like to ask for some facts from you, then i would like your opinion on something.<P>Since the incidents of September 11, we have been inundated with news of how great the tragedy is. What I have wanted to know, and have been unable to find, is not how many died, or are missing, but how many lived, and escaped the buildings. I've heard a figure once, that as many as 25,000 may have gotten free. Do you know a more precise number? How many people were rescued before the towers collapsed?<P>For your opinion, I request your analysis of the idea that some freedoms may 'have' to be curtailed in the interest of National Security. How far do you expect our government to go, and how much resistance do you expect to be but up by the American People? On a similar vein, how far do you think the government will go before the public protests? Will it be too late to do anything by then?<P>I thank you for this opportunity, and look forward to your response.<P>-Zodo, Ci
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Postby Seldom on Wed Oct 03, 2001 8:06 am

To first respond to zodo again;<P>I agree, the US is a constitutional republic, and therefore those acting on the assumption that we are in fact a democracy would be acting upon a false assumption. However, the US has in its actions throughout history been the screaming figurehead of "democracy" and the endless opponent of perceived tyranny. As such, those acting on such assumptions would be acting on well-founded assumptions, even if they are false.<P>
And, as for Silver:<P>Knights are vouched by other Knights or Lords. Vouching for a Squire involves hanging your entire rank and the respect of your Order and the Council of Lords on your trust in another individual. It is not undertaken lightly, as, if your vouch betrays the Orders, he does so bearing your name into the abyss of disloyalty as well as his. If a Knight vouches for a Squire, and that Squire damages the Orders, that Knight would be monumentally lucky to even remain within the Orders at all.<P>This causes Recruiting to be a rare and welcome occurence. We are always hoping for more backup, in any field, but are thorough, if not draconian in our testing, and extremely discriminating and cautious in our invitation. Any person is eligible, but only those who have already demonstrated certain traits are ever invited. Every Order has different requirments, and those I cannot share. But, the simpler answer is that only a Knight can give you the Chance to become one, and he does so at great personal risk. <P>
As for how we will proceed from here.<P>"Observe the pond. It is smooth, reflective, tranquil. Now strike it's surface. See how it ripples? Yet, is it not still the pond? Throw in a stone. See how it ripples, just the same as before? yet is it not still the pond? Though the stone has forever changed the pond, its bottom reshaped, its compostion changed, it is still the pond. It takes a great storm, or a great drought, to destroy the pond, and in life both are very rare."<P>-Meditations and Discussions<P>
The Three Orders enact our duties as we have always done so. While many of our Knights have become focused on these recent events, there are other, equally pressing needs all throughout our work. There are day to day charities and clinics that must remain open. There are still the illiterate to be taught. Our duties are broad and change often, this is simply another stone in the pond.<P>-Seldom
Knight of the Three Orders.<P>
"Do you mean to tell me that you called me at midnight on a wednesday... thursday morning, to ask me what you can tell those people about letting them in?"<P>"Yessir"<P>"... ... ... ... Tell them to act out of their own perceptions of chivalry, and if they are true, they will. If they act so, one of us is bound to find them. There are many who speak and few who act. Those few who act are usually easy to spot. Wish them luck... we could use the help."<P>-long distance phone call to Pariah, Benefactor of the Three Orders.
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Postby Seldom on Wed Oct 03, 2001 9:07 am

Alright... One answer at a time... <P>
Silver:<P>At the last roster report, about 4 days ago, there are 3724 Knights accumulated between the Three Orders, excluding where ranks overlap. Keeping accurate records of membership is often hard. With the number of ranks a person can possess, it is sometimes hard to count them only once. However, the most accurate figure I have in my possession right now is a Quiet Eyes survey stating that there are 3724 individual Knights, about 2 dozen Lords, and fewer than a dozen special personnel. Of those, the number are primarily Silent Shields, With approximatly a third being split between the Quiet Eyes and Merciful Truth. Those figures are for originial initiation, as most Knights hold multiple ranks.<P>
Atlas:<P>Yes, we operate in Europe, though I am told there are those factions there that disprove of us. As for Denmark, I spoke this morning with a Danish Knight... so we must have some presence there... ::grins:: Our structure is not designed around regional action or zones of control, so any Knight who happened to be in the region coul and would act accordingly. It is our view the Chivalry, Charity and Compassion are global, and should not ever be segregated into nations or factions. They should simply BE, and that should be enough. <P>
Now, for the challenge: zodo:<P>Even though I was present during the event itself, or at least, conscious for part of it, I am uncertain, as are my contacts, with the numbers you seek. The sad fact is that America is not concerned largely with the survivors, they are concerned with what was taken, and what they may do about it. Man in general, and America in particular, is well well known for punctuating history with negatives, not positives, and so It may be years before anyone takes the time to figure out the silver-lining statistics like that one. I'll put someone on it right now.<P>Now, this, my friend, is an interesting question. Do freedoms "have" to be curtailed in the interest of national security.<P>I can answer this question two ways;<P>Yes. In the name of National Security, anything that allows said Security to be compromised is an enemy of the state, whether it is a faulty security policy, a terrorist, or the freedom of the people that Security is supposed to protect, because their actions within that freedom endanger them. If National Security is to be the priority, then anything may be sacrificed in its name.<P>And of course;<P>No. Our purpose in founding this nation was the defense of freedom, and as such, the government has no right to take such freedom away from us. If our freedoms endanger the nation than find better ways to defend the nation.<P>
Sadly, both of those are extreme answers, and, in my mind, lacking. Our goverment is a vast hypocritical bureacracy more interested in defending its hold over the people than the people themselves. They will go to any lengths to maintain control over "their" people, and they will always make it look like its for our own good, no matter what the obvious results of their actions seem to be. While some of us in the American People believe that the government's actions should watched for any sign of the loss of the people's interest, others are content to simply go day to day and let the government do what it does.<P>If there are people who object to the methods the government may use in the coming months to "secure" our freedom, and "enact justice" upon those who would strike at us, they will object, and there will be great debates among the people. Sadly, few of these will merit the attention of the government. Unless someone with the clout to sway the government's perspective becomes involved in the fray, their methods will not change.<P>so the question is not, "how far will they go before we protest", because there are even now those that protest, but it is "How far will they go before someone with the power to stop them protests".<P>
On a similar note, I have an ethics idea to put before you regarding this issue. If we assume that all people act justly within their own perceptions, doing what they feel is right based on what they know and believe, then consider this.<P>Terrorists attacking the United States of America see us as a Democracy in which all people have a say in the government's workings, therefore all of us are part of the government. If they intend to strike at the government, all people are therefore, logical, viable targets in their view. Any citizen of the US is as much a part of our government in their eyes as any Congressperson. As Such, they attack targets where they will do as much damage to the infrastructure of our government and nation as possible. From their perspective, this is not "terrorism", it is good military tactics in a war they are fighting against the capitalist oppression of their home nations.<P>On the flipside, We, who know for fact that the personages involved in the attacks on us are not members of the governments or civilian populations of the nations they come from, but are, in fact, a self-motivated minority striking at a perceived threat, have already drafted plans to indiscriminately bomb targets in the aggressors home nations in order to "smoke out" the responsible parties.<P>Which seems more unreasonable to you? Assaulting the government that you believe is the source of your oppression, or assaulting the neighbours and families that live around those that attacked you?<P>If America, as a nation, wishes to come out of these events with any diginity or any sense of "being in the right", they will choose to enact a more specific and discriminating form of justice than the bombing of entire nations, the bulk of whose populations had no knowledge of these events.<P>Thank you for your questions... keep them coming.<P>-Seldom
Knight of the Three Orders.<P>"How can you in good faith defend their actions, your Lordship, when you yourself have been crippled by their attacks?"<P>"Because I am an honest man, and in all honesty, if I were in their position, I would have struck at much more merciless targets. I can blame no man for the actions he takes following his own belief in freedom and justice. I can, however, believe in our right to exact appropriate retribution, and I do... I assure you that I do."
-Anon Silent Shield at the last forum, and my response.
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Postby Silver Adept on Thu Oct 04, 2001 7:15 am

Heh. I didn't realize that questions like those required midnight phone calls to answer. Maybe next time I'll just stick to all-nighters. <P>However, you have answered my question, and for that, I thank you. I see that I was not erroneous in saying that you would be an excellent teacher. <P>One thing leads to another, however. You continuously quote your own conversations and other coversations, but on occasion you refer to some things that I can only guess are printed material somewhere. How do you amass such things? (Again, I don't ask, 'Where can I get them?' because that would simply be met with 'I can't tell you.')<p>[This message has been edited by Silver Adept (edited 10-04-2001).]
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Postby Seldom on Fri Oct 05, 2001 1:38 am

Good question.<P>I quote quite a bit from documents that have deeply affected the way I think, act and view the world. A few of these are documents compiled and maintained by the Order of Merciful Truth, and the Order of Quiet Eyes.<P>The Testament- Originally a document detailing the discussions that led to the founding of the Three Orders, the Testament has been added to over time, and has become sort of a repository for all the profound thoughts that contemplation creates. The Testament has no one author, and no one intention other than the contiuation of wisdom. It is one of my favorite texts.<P>Epics- Epics is a strange work, we have no clue who wrote it, though it was certainly one of our Orders. The stories are written in the sort of "bible-like" language you would expect to hear out of a prophecy in a Fantasy novel, but the work as a whole contains many interesting bits.<P>Darius- Darius was an unusual man, one of the original 3 dozens knights who founded the Orders. The First to hpld rank in all three, and the First to be a Lord of each in turn, his journals form a body of study for most Knights of today. His works are candid, enlightening, and often surprising, as he approaches life and work with unusual views.<P>Other works are more mundane, and are usually from my personal collection. If I've left out something I've quoted that you were specifically interested in, do tell, I'm almost certain I have.<P>
-Seldom
Knight of the Three Orders.<P>"I do not believe in zero."
-Darius, Reflections.<P>"What do you think it means?"<P>"If he expected us to know what it meant, he wouldn;t have written it. Haven't you noticed the heavy overtone of zen thought to his whole work? If we know it, he has no need of writing it for us, that would be redudnant."
-Conversation before the assembled Scholars of the Merciful Truth.
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Postby Silver Adept on Fri Oct 05, 2001 11:24 am

*sighs wistfully* A collection of knowledge and wisdom that's just out of my hands... *%@#$!<P>Oh, well. There is only so much one can attain from reading another's work. True wisdom likely comes from within. <P>(Either in experience for or by what one thinks about another's wisdom) <P>I hope you don't mind me asking lots of questions here, but I am by nature a fairly curious person, and I want to be able to know things somewhat completely. <P>The question that is next is for you personally. How are you feeling?
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Postby Seldom on Sun Oct 07, 2001 1:15 am

Frustrated, I would say...<P>it is a quarter after 5 in the AM... I will not sleep tonight. It will have been many nights since I slept, again. Insomnia has long been a nemesis of mine, and it remains one to this day.<P>My inability to move freely or act efficiently is a constant struggle. I am the sort to walk places and move constantly rather than sit. Now I am bound into a chair. It requires some adapting. My work keeps me busy, but there is always the night to remember. Memory can be a harsh thing.<P>-Seldom
Knight of The Three Orders.<P>"What do you see in the ruins of an empire?"<P>"Room to grow..."<P>-Darius, Reflections.
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Postby Sekhmet on Sun Oct 07, 2001 6:47 am

I'm just going to sit here in rapt attention...Been out of the posting loop so long I think I've lost the knack. Way to go, Seldom, for challenging yourself to break habit: it's a tough road to travel, that. Your responses are both highly enlightening and extremely parallel to what my Theory of Knowledge class has discussed and concluded in conferences past. 'Tis good to see that there are others out there who think as deeply as we.<P>Here's two quick questions for you from a recent ToK forum on political judgement:<P>1) Which is more important, freedom or equality?
2) Should we tolerate those who are intolerant of others?<P>I would just like to know your takes on those two questions...They gave my classmates and I three rollicking days of discussion and argumentation. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>Sabi, CI<P>------------------
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Postby BandMan2K on Sun Oct 07, 2001 9:22 am

From what i've seen of your answers seldom, i'm curious to ask how old is the Three Orders? They don't seem to sound anything like ours. Yours sounds more older and more rooted than this one is. of Course you don't have to answer, but I'm a History man and The Three Orders seems very intriging.<P>Secondly, on your condition at this moment, i know none of us and specially not me can even begin to fathom the hell you went through and still dealing with right now, but i'm hoping that you can overcome this "bump" in the road of life and be able to do what you love. <P>P.S. take some sleeping pills and sleep Seldom. You deserve the rest, and you need it to stay strong in mind and body. I think all of us are somewhat concerned with your health and need for recovery.<P><P>------------------
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Postby zodo on Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:22 am

Originally posted by Seldom:
<B>"There is no precedent in just behavior for the application of wide-ranged tactical weaponry upon a populace unless you intend to make total war, killing everything and everyone, or you intend to lay siege until they submit, that you may conquer them. The idea of bombing a nation into giving up one man is absurd, and, even if it works, will go down in history as an act of heavy-handed warmongering that will set this nations reputation back forever."
-Veritas, Lord of Merciful Truth.</B><P>I would offer a dispute to this statement by Lord Veritas, with the caveat that I did not hear or read the full context of that statement.<P>It would indeed be barbarous to use weapons of mass destruction in the pursuit of apprehending a single man. However, this is not what is happening right now. The weapons are capable of being devastating in their own right, but are also very precisely aimed at specific targets, therefore they are not weapons of 'mass destruction'. In addition, Osama bin Laden is indeed Public Enemy Number one, but he is the head of an organization that is being sheltered by a government that is recognized by only one other country in the world. <P>The U.S. government and military have repeatedly stated that our conflict is with terrorist organizations, like Al Qaeda, and with those who would harbor these terrorists. They do not stand alone against this, with NATO invoking Article 5 for the first time in History, the United Nations stating that it is justifiable for a nation to defend itself when attacked, and with the majority of the world supporting the coalition against terrorism in word, if not in deed.<P>In short, Lord Veritas' statement, as a principle, is true, but it does not apply to the situation occurring today.<P>-Zodo, CI
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Postby Greg on Mon Oct 08, 2001 5:51 am

I concur with Bandman on this, noble Seldom.<P>Whilst your body is damaged, your mind is still whole and active. Naturally, this frustrates one who is used to being physical and helping others.<P>To this, I say two things:<P>1) You are still fufilling your Oath. Since your first posting to this board, like many others here I have learned much from your own wisdom, as well as from the texts you quote. I have a great deal of respect for you, and the knowledge that you share and the discussions you have generated have taught us all much about honourable living. The nature of your work has changed, but that which you do now is equally as important, for it inspires others to calm heads and thoughful actions.<P>2) We all wish you well in your recovery / adjustment. But you need (and deserve) rest. Now more than ever, your body, mind and spirit need to rest, both in sleep and meditation.<P>Additionally, I too would like to pose a question to you; something I beleive is both the simplest and the hardest question we all face:<P>What is honour?<P>I am interested in how your Order defines it, but I would also like to know how you personally view and define it.<P>PIQE,
Sir Greg
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Postby Seldom on Mon Oct 08, 2001 11:46 am

I will begin by responding to the two impressive questions from the Eqyptian God Of Night in the corner there:<P>I, personally, do not believe in equality or freedom as idividual things. There is no method by which we can declare all people equal, or by which we can calaim to be free. Any structure we build to give us freedom inherently limits us, and any action we take to create equality is doomed to fail; as we only enforce intolerance. <P>My replacement for the out-moded nature of these views is Respect. In the Testament, as in many other texts across the world, it states, "Treat all others as they should treat you", or something to that effect. If all people lived by that creed, would we not be equal? We would receive only what we offered in return, we would create our own social evironment where the only person to blame for rudeness would be one self. Likewise, freedom is only an expression of respect for another person's way of life. If I respect muslims, jews, christians and catholics, I will not belittle their respective definitions of God or their methods and beliefs in following him. If I respect vegetarians, vegans, pagans, heathens, gays, lesbians, bi-sexuals and any other group I am not a part of, then I will have no reason to act toward them any differently than I would have them act toward me. Treating all people with respect id the same as tolerance, because, with respect is proper courtesy and willingness to allow action.<P>The respect I speak of is a different kind than you may be thinking. Respect is a thing all ideas, people and things deserve on a basic level. It is tolerance, courtesy, and privacy. The respect one person can earn from another is separate, something only some few deserve. But that is my basic response to your first question.<P>As for tolerance of the intolerant; I would show you the torn nature of my view. No, under no circumstances should those who act violently or inappropriately upon intolerance be tolerated by the populace at large. Bigots and hate-criminals should be treated with all the disdain they offer their chosen enemy in the world. And yet, all people are entitled to thier own beliefs. So The Klan is allowed to hate blacks, jews, gays, and anyone else not in their perfect little world view. They are allowed to do so... my tolerance ends when they remove respect and act on their inability to perceive others for what they are. Also an answer in brevity.<P>
To Bandman:<P>According to the data I have been given, the Orders were founded officially in January of 1950, but apparently the foundation goes back further than that. I have been looking into the myself recently, and will try to get back to you when I can.<P>As for my condition, it has been remarkably painless, which I find disconcerting at times. The object hit me hard enough that I was thrown several yards into a newstand and was almost immeadiately unconscious. when I awake, I was under the influence of morphine, which I am told is issued only to those who would be in extreme pain. I felt nothing. Sadly, that became a standard as now I still feel nothing. ::half-shrug:: Life goes on, no matter what, I have Four Oaths to keep, and nothing short of death can stop me from adhering to them to the best of my ability. I understand that I am lucky, that in my devotion I do not stop to consider the things I have lost, but I think that is an advantage. If I stopped functioning for 3 years due to depression, I would get nothing done.. ::grins::<P>As for sleeping pills, I refuse to take such things. I have a melanin disorder, I do not sleep for most of a week, sometimes two, and then I sleep like a stone for a prolonged period, 18-20 hours normally. I can willfully hold of on that episode of sleep, but when I let go of it, it will be even longer. The sad side effect of this disorder is that Sleeping Pills of most varieties actually cause me to become extrememly awake and hyperactive for several hours, as my body secretes adrenalin and endrophins to keep me awake against the sudden change in body chemistry. I long ago adapted to my insomnia, and my statement of frustration was because I was asked to describe how I felt at the moment. I appreciate your sympathy, but I dislike drugs.<P>Now, for the difficult question; What is Honour?<P>One of the things I have the most respect for my Orders for is that they do NOT attempt to define Honor. The Silent Shields have reference to it in everything, the Quiet Eyes refer to it in their literature, and the Merciful Truth debate its nature, but no where in our Orders is there a "definitive" description of the form and function of this force. While each Order has some take on Honor as they feel it should exist, they do not enforce these things. Some of these are below.<P>"A Knight of the Silent Shields is expected, in all things to be Courageous, but not foolish, Excellent, but not arrogant, and Compassionate, but not compromising...."
-Oaths of the Initiate, Order of Silent Shields.<P>"Your motion through the Ranks of our Order will be judged upon performance, contribution, and the soul which we can judge you to possess from your actions. In your actions should be mirrored your intent. Be decisive, but do not act hastily. Be certain, know why you act or do not act, blindness kills. Most of all, be true to your Order, for in the end, any action to our benefit will be treated as such."
-Oaths of the Initiate, Order of Quiet Eyes.<P>
"Objection! I demand to be judged on the merit of my work, and not some phantasm of motivation that even this council cannot define!"<P>"Duly Noted. As such, we concur that your actions were meritous, but your intentions are in question and your moral fibre is lacking. As such, we deem you in opposition to our intention as an Order, and as a force for the betterment of the world at large. Knight you are hereby dismissed of all rank in standing within the Orders and reduced to the status of Squire. Learn again the reasons why we act as we do, and we will welcome you. What you do is only as important as why you do. That is all, forum dismissed."
-Hearing before the Council of Lords, Anonymous<P>
Our Order has made it clear that Honor is individual, but that their view of it is just as important as your own in judging an action. I approve of that view.<P>Likewise, my view of Honor is that there is no one definition of it. My definition is a scattered collection of my own religious references and the experience. Honor is a pattern of behavior by which you create self control and strength of purpose. I have met men whose view of honor appalled my own, but whose devotion to them was equally strong. Sadly, my code is almost verbatim the Code of Conduct for the Silent Shields, which I cannot in good faith print here. <P>
I hope some of that was helpful, I was interrupted serveral times during the writing of the last portion.<P>-Seldom
Knight of the Three Orders.<P>"Your thought for the day is that in Zen, there is no thought."
-Darius, Reflections<P>"There is no precedent in just behavior for the application of wide-ranged tactical weaponry upon a populace unless you intend to make total war, killing everything and everyone, or you intend to lay siege until they submit, that you may conquer them. The idea of bombing a nation into giving up one man is absurd, and, even if it works, will go down in history as an act of heavy-handed warmongering that will set this nations reputation back forever."
-Veritas, Lord of Merciful Truth.
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Postby Greg on Tue Oct 09, 2001 4:03 am

There are two points I would like to raise about what you've said here:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zodo:
<B>It would indeed be barbarous to use weapons of mass destruction in the pursuit of apprehending a single man. However, this is not what is happening right now. The weapons are capable of being devastating in their own right, but are also very precisely aimed at specific targets, therefore they are not weapons of 'mass destruction'. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What specifically defines a "weapon of mass destruction." How many people does it have to kill <I>before</I> it becomes wrong?<P>Are we sayng that it's OK for a bomb to kill 999 people, but not the thousanth because then it's "mass destruction". I guess it's an important destinction if you personally are the thousanth person, but I'm sure the other 999 aren't in a position to care.<P>I have some (admittedly small) experience with explosives, but I know that it's extremely rare (even with a number of carefully placed charges on building foundations and many days planning with structual diagrams) to destroy one particular building and not damage any others "accidentally". There's no such thing as a "surgical strike" in war.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zodo:
<B>In addition, Osama bin Laden is indeed Public Enemy Number one, </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, he's <B>American</B> public enemy #1. I'm Australian, and whilst I don't have any particular respect for him, I've still yet to see any concrete proof of his guilt.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zodo:
<B>The U.S. government and military have repeatedly stated that our conflict is with terrorist organizations, like Al Qaeda, and with those who would harbor these terrorists.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Let's stop and think about this for a moment.<P>President Bush has declared war on "all terrorists, and those who harbour them." How do you define a terrorist? One who makes demands against a government and the blows up civillians when the demands aren't met?<P>You've just descibed Bush himself there. Come to thing of it, the CIA were the ones who taught Bin Laden how to be a terrorist in the first place. <P>But, leaving that aside, afer Al Queda is done, who will be the next set of terrorists. Plenty of unrest in Africa, he could try there.<P>He could take on the IRA. The Birts would like that, but half of Ireland wouldn't be too happy about it. And since quite a lot of Americans have Irish ancestry, that'd be a tricky one.<P>Or maybe the US could go back into Cuba. I'm sure there'd be a warm welcome there too.<P>Greg
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Postby Silver Adept on Tue Oct 09, 2001 4:38 am

And now that you've had a little time to rest, hopefully, Seldom, I'll pepper you again. <P>I really hope that you don't mind doing this. <P>Silver's Query #3: This is in relation to my earlier question. I know that there are some works that cannot be provided upon request (as much as I REALLY would like to see them, not only for philisophical but for practical interests...) because they are essentially secret texts. <P>However, I'm sure that you also have a wealth of knowledge that can be provided upon request. <P>Two part question: 1) What do you read for concepts and ideas regarding honor and your look on life?<P>2) Where may I possibly be able to obtain such materials? (That, of course, aren't restricted.)
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Postby Seldom on Tue Oct 09, 2001 11:23 am

An interesting point, zodo, but I would indicate 2 errors in your argument, with an appropriate recognition of your caveat. The statement does not refer to the use of weapons of mass-destruction, as there is a precedent for such actions. The US set the precedent for the application of tactical mass destruction in world war 2, against the japanese. This statement was made in reference of the US's attempt to force an organisation that believes it is in the right to surrender by bombing uncertainly across an entire nation. I have little faith in US bombing target choice, after the last time we engaged in such activities, where-in we bombed a Chinese embassy out of what can only be called blatant stupidity.<P>His statement was intended as a literal perspective on the events unfolding before us. I agree with him; no where in history is there a precedent set for systematically collapsing a nations infrastructure in the name of apprehending a criminal... and that was his point. An action without precedent leads to uncertain reactions. His statement was a speculation on that reaction.<P>It is good to know you read the quotes and provide them with honest thought. Thank you.<P>-Seldom
Knight of the Three Orders.<P>"Though I dream of Erehwon, that place all men have built but none have dared to tread within, I know that I cannot tread there before my death, and fear to die to reach it..."
-Epics, Erehwon: I am Utopia unbound, Anonymous.
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Postby Seldom on Wed Oct 10, 2001 2:24 am

Let me think on that, I will mail you what I come up with. remind me of you don;t have it in 48 hours.<P>-Seldom
Knight of the Three Orders.<P>"Whendat omina vaji vaji Koloma!"<P>"What?"<P>"Exactly."
-Best way to end a conversation I've ever heard.<P>
"Read every other word of something, sometime. It makes a remarkable amount of sense, when you factor in how silly anything sounds when you take it out of context or intention."
-Darius, Reflections.
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Postby Josh the Aspie on Wed Oct 17, 2001 12:14 am

How deep does the "no displaying relgion" rule you talked about in another thread run? I mean... can you quote various religious texts as sources of wisdom in your speaches? Like if you wanted to quote the golden rule, let he who is without cast the first stone, and the wicken reed section of "Ye harming none, do as ye will" (imperfect quote here, I'm sure. sorry). Could you, to make a point?<P>------------------
OM MANI PADME HUM: The jewl in the lotus of the heart. -tebetin prayer wheel prayer. Feel the Karma increase.<P>Companion of the Order Ivbalis<P>[CRFH!!! Code]
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Postby Silver Adept on Wed Oct 17, 2001 5:27 am

Always more. Could be that right now we haven't thought of anything yet. <P>(Right... I'm always full of questions...) <P>So why not turn towards a more philisophical bent? <P>Here's my next question, Seldom. What do you think about Heaven and Hell? <P>Officially as a member of the Three Orders, and personally, as well.
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Postby Seldom on Wed Oct 17, 2001 8:02 am

In reverse order, for the sake of brevity;<P>Josh:<P>The Policy as stated in testament makes no call against the use of religious referrence in speech or deed. The purpose of the policy is to maintain the purity of the Orders' purpose. I can stand before the Council of Lords, or sit, as is the case, and quote anything for the Book of Mormon to the Satanic Verses to the Book of Ten Thousand Things. The policy itself restricts my use of religion as a central theme ("May God guide you"), Motivational content ("In Allah's name do we strike down upon the unrighteous"), or accreditation of my efforts ("The Wisdom of the Goddess allowed me to overcome the difficulties of my assignment"). I quote religious texts very occaisionally, because I am a purist at heart, and so keep as close to policy as I am able. As such, the policy really only governs addresses, reports and literature associated directly with the Orders. We have no right nor any intention to control anything else.<P>Hope that clarifies. If not, say so, I'll try again.<P>
Now, for Silver;<P>Personally, I am a monastic animist. I believe in neither under any of the effects they have been defined under. I do believe in an afterlife, of sorts, and in karma and reincarnation. But that contradiction requires an assumption of the existance of the soul and the dual nature of the universe. But, to give you the simpler answer; Personally, I do not believe in Heaven nor Hell.<P>As a member of the Three Orders, my position does not change. My beliefs are not altered by the policies and practices of the Orders. We are all in the Orders because WE want to make a difference. While I do leave my religious convictions on the backburner during my audiences, I do have them, and they are, in my mind, as valid and potent as any other person's. I will not go into them at length in this forum, that is not what this place is for. But, once again, the simple answer. As a Knight, I do not believe in Heaven, and the only Hell I believe in is the kind Silent Shields give out in exchange for wrongdoing.<P>Hope that is sufficient, as always, more is better, keep it coming.<P>-Seldom
Knight of the Three Orders.<P>"12:00"<P>"12:01"<P>"12:00"<P>-Clocks and Insomnia.<P>
"What is the purpose of sleep? To rest the body, or to defragment the mind? If sleep is for the body, I need none of it, my body is never strained. If it is for the mind, I need none of it, for my mind was long ago broken into pieces and handed to every book and idea I have ever touched."
-Darius, Reflections.
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Postby Josh the Aspie on Wed Oct 17, 2001 9:26 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Seldom:
<B>The Policy as stated in testament makes no call against the use of religious referrence in speech or deed. The purpose of the policy is to maintain the purity of the Orders' purpose. I can stand before the Council of Lords, or sit, as is the case, and quote anything for the Book of Mormon to the Satanic Verses to the Book of Ten Thousand Things. The policy itself restricts my use of religion as a central theme ("May God guide you"), Motivational content ("In Allah's name do we strike down upon the unrighteous"), or accreditation of my efforts ("The Wisdom of the Goddess allowed me to overcome the difficulties of my assignment"). I quote religious texts very occaisionally, because I am a purist at heart, and so keep as close to policy as I am able. As such, the policy really only governs addresses, reports and literature associated directly with the Orders. We have no right nor any intention to control anything else.<P>Hope that clarifies. If not, say so, I'll try again. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>*nods a bit* okay. That makes sense. Now how much wieght would a quote from a religious text carry in general? More or less than a quote from a physics text book? Example: If you quoted the law of mosus on homosexuality, and incest... how much weight would that one point alone carry?<P>With you? With the council?<P>And in this I raise another question (if you are willing).<P>How reliable/falible do you see religious texts to be?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>
"12:00"<P>"12:01"<P>"12:00"<P>-Clocks and Insomnia.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>*Sniggers* I've seen that happen before many a time... especialy when you have two clocks that are off from one another... or an obscured last digit.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>
"What is the purpose of sleep? To rest the body, or to defragment the mind? If sleep is for the body, I need none of it, my body is never strained. If it is for the mind, I need none of it, for my mind was long ago broken into pieces and handed to every book and idea I have ever touched."
-Darius, Reflections.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I -like- this Durius guy. Is there a book made of quotes that can be let out? If so I want a copy. ^_^.<P>But as for sleep, I suppose that it can also be used to allow the brain time to cool. The expendature of energy in the brain to think supposedly causes it to heat. And you have to lower your thought processes to let it cool... possibly through meditation. It can also be used to let the mind escape the constrains of rutted thought for a time, including the patern of the supposed liniar... the sleeping mind is the one that most often experiances other times.<P>------------------
OM MANI PADME HUM: The jewl in the lotus of the heart. -tebetin prayer wheel prayer. Feel the Karma increase.<P>Companion of the Order Ivbalis<P>[CRFH!!! Code]
!F U ?IRC R- RM+ H@ PSL+ S+ FR WB GN+ AI++ D&M BR RPG N? WM++++ I++ E-
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