Honorary level within the Order of Jubal

The noble Order of the Knights of Jubal traces its origins back to the Year Two Thousand A.D., when a group of distinguished persons of good and true character, founded the order to promote chivalry and honour. The order takes its name from our leader, Alexander Jubal McRae, who on two (so far) occasions has been seriously injured, in one case fatally, defending an innocent woman from attackers.

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Postby BandMan2K on Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:55 am

I think you got it good Al. I'll support it.<P>------------------
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Postby TheVagabond on Thu Sep 13, 2001 3:57 am

As you can probably guess, I completely endorse this idea.<P>HKCI to be bestowed on the firefighters, police and other rescue workers who were injured or gave their lives trying to save others as well as those unnamed heroes who brought the fourth plane down, taking their own lives rather than see hundreds more killed or injured.<P>HKI to all others who lost their lives or loved ones in this horrible incident.<P>------------------
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Postby Robert W. Tiitto III on Thu Sep 13, 2001 6:22 am

I agree with the idea.<P>------------------
There are two types of people who usaualy dont have a lot to say.
people who are to busy planning wrong to say much, and good people who belive that actions speak louder than words and only talk when they have something worth saying.
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Postby gwalla on Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:33 am

It has my vote, with the Silver Adept's clarifications of course.<P>Heroism amid the tragedy:<P><A HREF="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2001/09/13/MN18608.DTL" TARGET=_blank>Mutiny on Flight 93</A><P><A HREF="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/09/13/MN142755.DTL" TARGET=_blank>Ladder No. 5 company</A> (<A HREF="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2001/09/13/national0456EDT0496.DTL" TARGET=_blank>more info</A>)<P>------------------
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Postby Jamie on Thu Sep 13, 2001 9:51 am

Dear Knights and Companions<P>In response to the idea of making those involved in the tragedy of September 11, 2001. This is a proposal for an honorary level within the order of Jubal for those involved in the tragedy of Tuesday. HKI, Honorary Knight of the Order of Jubal would be bestowed en mass to all those affected by the tragedy. HKCI, Honorary Knight Commander of the Order of Jubal would be bestowed upon the known and unknown heroes involved in the tragedy. <P>Technically this goes beyond the rules of our order, however this is an extraordinary time. We need to do something not only to honor those fallen, but also to add to the healing process for ourselves. This tragedy goes beyond New York City and Washington DC. It affects the entire country of the United States and the world. <P>We can iron out any details later. Right now, let me have your thoughts.<P>Take care,<P>Jamie<P>------------------
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Postby zodo on Thu Sep 13, 2001 9:55 am

I am fully in support of this proposition.<P>-Zodo, CI
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Postby TheSarahLady on Thu Sep 13, 2001 9:58 am

I think that is very appropriate, you also have my support<P>------------------
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Postby Silver Adept on Thu Sep 13, 2001 11:59 am

Idea's great. <P>In that language, however, it could theoretically bestow HKI on everyone, since we are all affected by this in one way or another. <P>*ducks as objects are hurled at him for bringing up semantics*<P>In any case, *dodge* I would suggest *duck* an HKI rank for the victims of the tragedy... those injured or dead as a direct result of it. HKCI is bestowed upon all the heroes, named or un-named, alive or perished, that were involved in the rescue and evacuations directly. <P>Or am I being too narrow?
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Postby Rei on Fri Sep 14, 2001 2:10 am

ditto<P>i was thinking about exactly that idea for those on the plane that crashed in the field<P>they made a choice to sacrifice their lives for the greater good...i believe our oath says:
"Uphold the right, even at the cost of my life"<P>they deserve any honour we can bestow<P>just a pity it has to be post-humously<P>bb
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Postby Silver Adept on Fri Sep 14, 2001 4:21 am

Vagabond has the proper distinctions. <P>Rei is also correct. "To uphold the right, even at the cost of my life" is the first tenet of the Oath we swear, and so all those have fulfilled that and more. <P>Now let us uphold the rest of it. <P>"To mete out even-handed justice, tempered with mercy..." is for our leaders and authority figures, that they serve justice and not revenge.<P>"To assist and defend others..." by doing whatever is necessary to help those involved. Money or blood to the Red Cross, technology, volunteer work, disaster relief all will help. In addition, keep an eye out for racially motivated hate crimes and attacks against other races, especially Arab-Americans.<P>"To strive to act with honor at all times..."
See much of the above.
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Postby Rodent of Unusual Size on Fri Sep 14, 2001 5:10 am

Foo, this is going to make me sound like <I>un b
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Postby Greg on Fri Sep 14, 2001 5:16 am

I concur with Rodent, but I'm prepared to state my reasons publically.<P>A lot of people died on Tuesday. It is a tragedy and I mourn the senseless loss of life as keenly as anyone.<P>However, in regards to the people in the WTC and the Pentagon, we do not know who these people were or anything much about them. They were killed, yes, but they did not choose to sacrifice themselves, nor (I am sorry to say) did their deaths have any greater meaning or purpose. So, whilst I have the greatest sympathy for their families, friends and loved ones, I couldn't agree to giving blanket honourary knighthoods to them simply because they died a tragic death. It's a sad fact of life, but people die every day in tradgic circumstances. It's a daily occurance for innocent people to die at the hands of terrorists. The number of people involved doesn't make their deaths any more heroic or honorable.<P>To the passengers on Flight 93, I certainly name them as heroic and have no qualms about an HKI for those that stood up to the hijackers and willingly crashed the plane (sacrificing themselves) rather than hit the hijacker's target.<P>Fianlly, in regards to the police and fire officers that died trying to rescue people from the first explosion, I'm in two minds about this.<P>On the one hand, such people have (and usually do) act with great courage and nobility. I have little doubt about that.<P>However, so does almost every police office, fire officer and paramedic anywhere in the world. Yet we haven't issued an HKI to all of them.<P>The idea of an "Honorary Knight" is certainly a good one, but we should be carefully set the criteria. The rank should be conferred upong member of the order who perform deeds and actions that espouse the precepts of the Order: Justice, Mercy, Service and Honor.<P>The police and fire officers performed a Service to the community, there is no doubt of that. We don't know enough about them to know if they were Just, Merciful or Honorable people.<P>Likewise, the civillians who were in the buildings: we simply do not know enough about them (we don't even know their names, or how many there are) to make a decision on granting honorary knighthoods.<P>It has been suggested that we should set up a memorial page on the EI website for these people. That's a very good idea, and I'll work on one later tonight (Australian time). If anyone would like anything specifically said, or has a personal message they would like added, please e-mail me with it.<P>PIQE,
Sir Gregory, KI<P>------------------
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Postby Kanaeda Kuonji on Fri Sep 14, 2001 11:11 am

I fully support the motion! <P>------------------
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Postby Rei on Sat Sep 15, 2001 3:41 am

so, we are looking at bestowing honarifics on those who were PROACTIVE in this crisis...those people who carried those who were in wheelchairs down the stairs; those who chose to ditch the plane at the expense of their own lives rather than hurt others...(btw, for those who read <A HREF="http://www.wired.com," TARGET=_blank>www.wired.com,</A> today's quote is way cool!)<P>its a tragedy for thousands who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and we grieve. but, by creating this award, we are honouring those who made a CHOICE to behave in a manner consistent with our ideals and oath.<P>is that it? if so, i agree <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"><P>~#~
**thinks for a while and does a post-edit**<P>are people collecting news of such deeds? it may be helpful to tally them up. at the very least, we can put them on our examples page to prove that even in the direst, most terrifying of circumstances, people rise above...<P><p>[This message has been edited by Rei (edited 09-15-2001).]
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Postby Rodent of Unusual Size on Sat Sep 15, 2001 5:32 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>However, in regards to the people in the WTC and the Pentagon, we do not know who these people were or anything much about them. They were killed, yes, but they did not choose to sacrifice themselves<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is basically my position, but I could not figure out how to say it without sounding disrespectful and indelicate. Thank you for expressing it for me.
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Postby Greg on Sun Sep 16, 2001 2:49 am

I have placed a page on the EI website honouring those whom have died and whom sacrificed themselves.<P>It can be found at <A HREF="http://www.ivbalis.org/wtc.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.ivbalis.org/wtc.htm</A> <P>As always, all comments, criticisms and suggestions are gratefully accepted.<P>Sir Greg<p>[This message has been edited by Greg (edited 09-16-2001).]
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Postby Silver Adept on Sun Sep 16, 2001 6:58 am

Okay. Third position change, but with each new opinion, one must re-think his own... <P>An HKI or HKCI ranking to the heroes of this tragedy. Those involved on the Flight are definitely at least HKI. I think that would most certainly be appropriate. <P>Don't worry about sounding like a cold bastard. Sometimes the cold bastard is the only voice of reason...
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Postby TheVagabond on Sun Sep 16, 2001 10:13 am

Honorary degrees go to people who have not studied for them and have not earned them. In the same fashion, honorary knighthoods are given as tribute and out of respect for brave and bold deeds done. Or even just as a sign of respect. Honorary degrees and titles do not grant the recipient the same level of respect as one who has earned theirs. It's merely a way to show respect, support, or what have you.<P>------------------
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Postby Y2KDragon on Tue Sep 18, 2001 5:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Greg:
<B>
To the passengers on Flight 93, I certainly name them as heroic and have no qualms about an HKI for those that stood up to the hijackers and willingly crashed the plane (sacrificing themselves) rather than hit the hijacker's target.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It is unknows if the plane was 'intentionally' crashed, or if it was a result of the hijackers being overwhelmed. Either way, HKI is appropriate for their actions against their abductors.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>
Fianlly, in regards to the police and fire officers that died trying to rescue people from the first explosion, I'm in two minds about this.<P>On the one hand, such people have (and usually do) act with great courage and nobility. I have little doubt about that.<P>However, so does almost every police office, fire officer and paramedic anywhere in the world. Yet we haven't issued an HKI to all of them.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'd have to say an HKI is appropriate for those who died performing their duties. It would have been easy enough, and certainly well justified, if they had just gotten out of the area. Even the Red Cross Life Saving Manual says "Better one than two, better him than you". Meaning, don't risk your life to try to save another. <P>The men and women of the NYPD and FDNY were more concerned with the safety of people possibly trapped and hurt than their own lives. I can only hope that I would have been just as brave as they were.<P>Callendryl Lifecaster
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Postby Bridgeman on Wed Nov 14, 2001 4:37 am

After reading thru this old thread, I would like to nominate one particular person who I see as having truly upheld the ideals of our order.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>From the Springfield, IL State Journal-Register<B><P>St. John's fires nursing professor who left to help victims of attacks <P>By JAYETTE BOLINSKI
STAFF WRITER <P>Deborah Adelman, the nursing professor suspended by St. John's College for leaving to assist victims of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in New York City, was fired Saturday.<P>Adelman, 47, said she had received a certified letter in the mail indicating she was dismissed for "job abandonment." The letter was signed by Jane Schachtsiek, chancellor of the nursing school.<P>"Even though I knew it was a possibility, in my heart I really didn't believe they would do that because of the unprecedented situation," Adelman said Monday. "I was shocked and I cried."<P>Adelman was suspended by college administrators for 14 days after she took three weeks of unauthorized leave to go to Connecticut to work with family members of people killed in the attacks on the World Trade Center. <P>She is a longtime volunteer with the American Red Cross Disaster Health Service and said she felt duty-bound to go to New York City to help. She asked school administrators for time off, but they would not agree, saying they could not spare her for three weeks.<P>Administrators also would not give her vacation time to go or allow her to claim vacation pay. Adelman decided to go on her own time, made arrangements for other faculty to fill in for her and took with her term papers that needed grading.<P>Adelman, who has a doctorate in nursing and had been teaching for more than 12 years, moved to Springfield in June 2000 to take the position at St. John's.<P>She was out East from Oct. 2 through 21. On Oct. 19, Schachtsiek sent Adelman a letter notifying her of the 14-day suspension.<P>Last Thursday, a group of Springfield firefighters picketed St. John's Hospital to show support for the suspended nurse. St. John's officials have declined to comment, citing the confidentiality of personnel matters.<P>Adelman said she has an appointment today to find out about the college's grievance procedure, "but I don't think it will do much good." <P>Beyond that, she said she and her lawyer are discussing her options.<P>In the meantime, she will begin looking for another job.<P>"I don't know, but I hope that prospective employers would want someone who stands up for moral principals and behaves in a professional manner. I just don't know," Adelman said. "I know I didn't abandon my job. I gave notice, I got (staff to cover), I took papers to grade and I called them from there. I don't consider that job abandonment."<P>She added that she still does not regret her decision to help others who needed it.<P>"I think in the greater scheme of things I did the right thing," she said. "I helped people. I also feel I did my professional and moral duty. That's the message I'd want to leave my students. ... I did it because I wanted to exemplify what I teach them."
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Deborah Adelman, is my mother. Her actions attest to her service and mercy. I vouch for her honor and just heart (which was often wielded both for and against me in my childhood <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/tongue.gif"> ).<P>I feel that people like her and the other Red Cross volunteers are the real ones who deserve to be most honored for their actions.
<P>------------------
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Postby Silver Adept on Wed Nov 14, 2001 7:02 am

Unto which I am sure that you must be very proud of her. I would not consider it "job abandonement" either, considering that she did get staff to cover and tok her work with her so that she could return once she got done and pick up where she left off.
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Postby Kanaeda Kuonji on Thu Nov 15, 2001 1:33 am

In light of what I read, I too would agree to it. I also think we might voice our displeasure with the university in regards to what happened.<P>------------------
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Postby Rei on Sat Nov 17, 2001 10:20 am

good on your mother, for standing up for what she believes in in the face of bureaucratic nonsense!<P>tell her this little Aussie chick say's "Good onya!"<P>hope she finds a job where she is appreciated soon <P>Rei
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Postby TKarrde98 on Sun Nov 18, 2001 3:25 am

Hear here! I applaud Mrs. Adelman! I, too, had a very small version of "job abandonment" when I refused to go to work on the same night that I help lead youth group (and my boss knew it before he hired me). Fortunately, I still have my job, but I can attest that it is nerve-wracking!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Honorary degrees go to people who have not studied for them and have not earned them. In the same fashion, honorary knighthoods are given as tribute and out of respect for brave and bold deeds done. Or even just as a sign of respect. Honorary degrees and titles do not grant the recipient the same level of respect as one who has earned theirs. It's merely a way to show respect, support, or what have you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Recipients of honorary degrees often do earn them through some service or action to the college. For example, the Reverend Doctor C. W. Andrews of Calvary Baptist Church of Spokane has dedicated years of unpaid service in the form of class assistance, teaching, professor assistance, and chapel support to the school, so they presented him with a Doctor of Letters, <I>honoris causa</I>. Unlike most doctorates, there is no studying involved with a Doctor of Letters, and a D.L.(h.c.) is the only Doctorate offered by Whitworth. I can say that Rev. Andrews most certainly earned his, though he didn't have to write a dissertation to get it!<P>Likewise, the true heros of the attacks have indeed earned a KI, or at least membership in the order. Just as the Epistle of James tells us that "faith without works is dead," these people demonstrated commitment to our same ideals through their actions! Those who sacrificed their lives should most certainly be given HKI, and as for Mrs. Adelman, I propose that we offer her full membership and Knighthood.<p>[This message has been edited by TKarrde98 (edited 11-18-2001).]
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Postby Treespeaker on Thu Nov 29, 2001 6:58 am

Having finally returned here, I have to say this about everything I've seen in this thread in general (sorry guys, no specific quotes):<P>While it's a nice idea, there's the definate problem of awarding HKI's to complete unknowns. Cynical as it may sound, I guarentee you that there were people on Flight 93 who did <I> not </I> try to resist, and, while that hardly makes them bad people, it also does not mean that the entire group should receive a blanket honor. Similarly, while the NYPD and FDNY have been working their butts off since the first plane hit, you have to bear in mind that for all you know you're giving honorary knighthood to adulturers, bribe-takers, or any number of other people who haven never dreamed of trying to uphold the Oath's ideals. Generic knighthood can't work for groups, not unless you know every member of the group. Individual HKI's makes a lot more sense, to my mind.
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