The Order as a force

The noble Order of the Knights of Jubal traces its origins back to the Year Two Thousand A.D., when a group of distinguished persons of good and true character, founded the order to promote chivalry and honour. The order takes its name from our leader, Alexander Jubal McRae, who on two (so far) occasions has been seriously injured, in one case fatally, defending an innocent woman from attackers.

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Postby Ravidel Terrant on Mon Aug 06, 2001 9:29 am

Though I have not been inducted into The Order as of yet I would like to put something forward. As it is i am the creator of a "fraternal" order dedicated to in an odd way the same thing. We train our minds and bodys to defend the people who need it. To support the freedom of any group who is supressed in our area. But Hawaii is a very accepting place so we don't have much use, but when a member saves someone from an unfortunate fate we all feel validated.
I was wondering about your Order, and soon mine too, could we become something more than a loosely conected group of people or a cohesive group that could, as the other knight's order, help with the safety of peoples on a whole.
Imagine, in a march of Neo-nazis and KKK members we couuld be in the backround insuring that no people are hurt by the raving bigots parading down the street. In a gay rights parade insuring that the gay bashers don't pick up a random demonstrator and hurt them.
My order has an open entrance but an ardous testing and training requierments, and a bit of self mutilation just to show dedication. Yours need not be but.... perhaps some higher ranking requiring testing?
Sill I would like to know what the future of this order could be. shout some ideas at me!
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Postby Seldom on Tue Aug 07, 2001 12:15 am

I suspect my Orders may have some knowledge of yours, Ravidel. As it stands, while we act as "a force", we are rarely out in force ourselves. Only the Silent Shields have ever taken it upon themselves to act aggressively in the name of their duty, and even they do so rarely. We have discovered that it is better to arrange the authorities' execution of their own duties than to attempt to do so ourselves. <P>Likewise, we are opposed to the marking of Knights, as it makes them obvious.<P>-Seldom
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Postby Ravidel Terrant on Tue Aug 07, 2001 12:43 am

Hmmm, I guess if you count alerting the authoritys and such then we dom more than I had previously thought. I doubt your order has herd of mine. Our membership can be counted on the fingers of both hands. Also we are not a group of adults yet either. We are high school students that have been discriminated against and have banded together to keep others from being harmed.<P>We never act as a full force. we are not looking for a fight. But insted it is the duty of our members to anytime we see someone who is weak being hamed by the stronger to step in and help that person.<P>And i'm not talking about playground violence either. An example of what we do is this, once I and my right hand were walking through kona when we heard a woman scream. We rushed over and saw that she was being raped by a single man. a stange thing in hawaii that. the rape itself that is. We managed to pry the man off of her and effectivly sit on him till she got safely away. I for one am glad that it was dark so she could not see our faces because we like to have anonimity.<P>This type of thing is extremely rare, but it validates our exsistance. Normally we just inform police if there is something that could be hamful to people going on.<P>Oh and for marking you'd have to be topless to show our mark, it is quite small, and it is something that people could just glance over<P>------------------
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Postby Silver Adept on Tue Aug 07, 2001 4:31 am

Seldom may have more than you think. <P>However, he's also correct. Aggressive movement may overbalance and lead to a slide. As individuals, perhaps, the fuller courses may be taken, but as a group, if one leans too far, one risks falling.<P>As for testing, we're already working on that part. Check out the 'Proof' thread for much of the agonizing that's happened regarding the worthiness of someone.
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Postby TheVagabond on Tue Aug 07, 2001 5:28 am

No offense meant as it sounds like your little group does good, but if anyone asked me to engage in "self mutilation" to prove my dedication, I would have to politely refuse and run the other way.<P>Trust that I mean what I say, and I will be far more loyal than someone you have branded.<P>------------------
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Postby Ravidel Terrant on Tue Aug 07, 2001 10:30 am

*sigh*
1. we don't agressively act, we are rectionist not proactive.
2. I don't brand anyone, they burn themselves, it isn't much after the training they go through, some that come to us in our school go home crying after one day of training, we red skull our excersize. Actually one of my newest members did on the first day but came back for more. I trust him more than many, he has true dedication
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Postby Ravidel Terrant on Tue Aug 07, 2001 10:31 am

*sigh*
1. we don't agressively act, we are rectionist not proactive.
2. I don't brand anyone, they burn themselves, it isn't much after the training they go through, some that come to us in our school go home crying after one day of training, we red skull our excersize. Actually one of my newest members did on the first day but came back for more. I trust him more than many, he has true dedication
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Postby Silver Adept on Wed Aug 08, 2001 8:57 am

Noting your points. <P>1) Reaction leads to error and overcompensation. Better to act once than to re-act. <P>2) I would think that if they choose to burn a mark into them after the training, that I would look at the methods of training and see if they need improvement.
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Postby Seldom on Wed Aug 08, 2001 10:11 am

I think perhaps that in judging without fuill knowledge, Silver, you are naming yourself a hippocrite, by being reactionary yourself. They are entitled to their own path, and we are unfit to judge it until we know it... In less modern times, scarification was viewed as a sign of extreme devotion and a symbol of fortitude and strength. While we do not advocate it ourselves, there are those within the many cells of the Silent Shields who carry their own marks, whether scars or tattoos. <P>To put it in a different light; had you, perhaps, fallen in love, and chosen to tattoo your paramour's name or some symbol of them on your shoulder, the world would not deride you for it. Eric the Blind is fond of saying, "Love duty, for only Duty motivates the heart to its greatest heights." In the eyes of a Knight, Duty is Love... and Love is Duty... That they mark their duty in a similar manner to how others would mark their love is a symbol of insight.<P>I merely felt that we should not assault a member of your Order for his path, when he chooses yours as well. Persecution, and condescension, are both unbecoming of a Knight.<P>-Seldom
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Postby Rei on Thu Aug 09, 2001 12:19 am

can you please clarify for me, i am having difficulty understanding how self-mutilation somehow demonstrates dedication?<P>surely dedication is better shown through outward action rather than some mark (in my mind, that only shows an ability to endure deliberate pain, however great or small)<P>am i missing some important point here?<P>Rei
(ps: on another note -- WAY TO GO RAVEN!! *ahem* yes, don't mind me, long time Rae fan here)
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Postby Ravidel Terrant on Thu Aug 09, 2001 3:28 am

Thank you Seldom.
Rei the mark means dedication to the cause, it is a question of how much are you willing. our training process makes camaraderie enough but when it comes to thoughs in the order it is broke down like this.
by then they have come far both phisicly and mentaly, all for the goal of joining the order. but how much are they willing to take? Do they belive in the cause enough to mark themselves forever and proclaim their dedication to anyone who knows where to look. we do not allow people who will not take action when their time comes. If there comes a point in time when I must lay down my life in defence of another I wont hesitate to do it. The mark is the seal of the pact that they wont shirk from their dutys to mankind. You don't want the man gaurding your back to have second thoughts about the whole deal.<P>------------------
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Postby DBLMagus on Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:04 am

The problem with the scarification to join an order is that once someone knows what it is they could easily fake it and then do things that would discredit that order. And scars aren't permanent, I've modified and removed some of my own with little more than my own nails, a knife or some heat. <P>I'd have to agree with the ideas of trying to remain anonomous. Its much easier to do what is right and proper when you don't have to worry about people second guessing your purpose and your motives. Like Seldom had said before about the reasons his order isn't all that much out in the open. In the open you have to worry about others imposing a belief on you that your group would never condone. I think the same thing happened with people who practiced magick in any of its forms (shamanism, witchcraft, etc) but its much more open now (since they repealed the laws against it). It'd be nice one day for orders of knights to be able to work in the open to help the world directly. Of course the last time knights worked majorly in the world was what? the knights templar? or some other order. i can't remember history too well. But it was back long ago.<P>heh, who knows maybe some of us are magic practitioners too ^_^
*hopes he hasn't brought the discussion too far off topic*
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Postby Greg on Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:31 am

In general terms, most self-mutilation (or simple scarring), is used as a form of dedication as it represents a permanent external commitment (i.e. once you have a scar, it's there for life) Additionally, it can also serve as a reminder to the individual, as in the tradition of the Yakuza of cutting off your own finger to prove your loyalty. It shows that you value membership more than your own health, shows the world what lengths you are willing to go to, and serves as a constant reminder of your pledge.<P>Having said all that, it's not something I would ever condone as a <I>mandatory</I> thing. If people wish to do it, fine. Anyone wanting to have the EI logo tattooed on there arm is more than welcome.<P>However, it is never something that should be forced on another, or be an "expected" part of membership, particularly in an order such as EI.<P>Central to the Oath is an agreement to respect others. That also extends to respecting their beliefs and there right to choose (or refuse) to mark their bodies. To impose a restriction or condition upon joining the Order would impinge on that right.<P>Regards,
Sir Greg<P>------------------
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Postby Silver Adept on Thu Aug 09, 2001 6:44 am

Once again, superior wisdom previals. <P>The problem with language is that meanings may be misinterpreted. In my case, it tends to be more "open mouth, put foot here" than anything else. <P>I didn't quite get it right the first time, so now I have to re-act. (I really hate doing that... because nobody likes to be wrong, least of all me... but when proven to be so, eat the crow while it's still warm...) <P>I think that I was more imagining what the media would have us believe of those who mark themselves as a symbol of loyalty (all evil-worshipping nuts...) without really thinking about it. Seldom's observation about the tatoo is correct. I apologize for hasty judgement.<P>Actions do speak louder than words or marks, but sometimes the marks may strengthen one's resolve to do the actions.
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Postby vorn_the_unspeakable on Thu Aug 09, 2001 7:02 am

It certainly seems to me that EI is not really an organization that <I>cares</I> whether others know you're a member or not; they can certainly look you up, if they feel like it, but there's not even a requirement that you put CI or KI or whatever after your name. It says you may, tho.<P>Dan Uznanski, CI (who doesn't put CI after his name unless he's posting to the EI boards, and usually doesn't bother using his real name on the internet)
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Postby Ravidel Terrant on Fri Aug 10, 2001 2:06 am

well I for one would by an Order of jubal shirt.
Anyway, to clarify I was not intending for this to be about my order. I was wondering what is in the future for The Knights of Jubal and could we come together as more than a loose organization of people but a cohisive group.<P>------------------
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Postby vorn_the_unspeakable on Fri Aug 10, 2001 3:04 am

If I may be so bold as to create policy.<P>The Order of Jubal has no <I>reason</I> to become much more coherent than it already is. We are a very diverse group, and we are only necessarily agreeing on one thing: The Oath of the Order of the Knights of Jubal. We do not have a political or social agenda we can truly rally behind except chivalry. And that can only effectively be supported through subtle application of chivalry itself. That means no real organized marches/protests/meetings. Besides that, the flavor of this Order is generally a private thing: We act on our own, using the Order itself as a set of underlying values, and making use of the forum to seek advice. There is little to gain from becoming more coherent.<P>Dan Uznanski, CI
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Postby DBLMagus on Fri Aug 10, 2001 4:46 am

*snicker*
If that wasn't a marketing ploy I don't know what is. Too bad i don't have a credit card or anyway to buy one of the shirts. <P>Hmmm, I could just get some of that special iron on transfer stuff that you can stick in your printer. Thats it, have the coat of arms for the group on the front breast pocket with Equites Ivbalis underneath, and on the back put my own coat of arms. Nah, be classier just to have the breast one, big pictures on the back can go wrong<p>[This message has been edited by DBLMagus (edited 08-10-2001).]
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Postby TheVagabond on Fri Aug 10, 2001 11:58 am

How about instead of scarring ourselves or getting tattoos, we all just buy t-shirts with the order's arms and logo? <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>------------------
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Postby Seldom on Sat Aug 11, 2001 12:50 am

"Let there be no path unwalked. Let there be no way unknown. Let there be no method restricted. That you honor your oath and serve your Order as is your way and your best effort is all the demand we make of you."<P>-Testament<P>"Though I travel alone in night and day, live alone as is my way, seek alone to join the fray, fight alone til my dying day, I am a Knight of the Order of Silent Shields, my Oath is my armor, my devotion my blade, my duty my honor, my actions my pay. Though I swear now as Knight Errant, I swear always to serve my Order. Be ye my Witness, and know what I say I speak with the whole of my heart."<P>-Oath of Ascension, Knight Errant, Order of Silent Shields<P>
Though I am not a Knight of your Order, I agree with the idea that sometimes solitary actions are better. Backup is good... but a low profile avoids conflict altogether.<P>
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Postby Silver Adept on Sat Aug 11, 2001 5:20 am

This reminds me of something that (quoting TV characters warning) Dalenn said about humanity in abylon 5. <P>She said that our greatest weakness is our diversity, but that our greatest strength is our diversity. <P>That applies fairly well to the Order. We're nothing more than a loose confederation at the moment, spread across the globe. However, we're spread across the globe. That lets us have myriad, varied, and powerful impacts in multiple places, not just one. Admittedly, they may not be headline news, (and I think that it's generally consensus that we don't want it to be that way...) they keep happening. As if by sheer volume alone, it might be possible to trace one Knight here in the U.S. all the way to a Knight in Austrailia, by following the path of good deeds. Wouldn't that be interesting?
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Postby Greg on Sat Aug 11, 2001 5:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rei:
<B>unlike Orders or groups which are geographically focussed (ie: can see each other, and interact F2F) we are dispersed and fragmented....we cross the spectrum, not only of place and culture, but also of religion, political affliation, personal orientation, the whole gamut.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think this is a very key point.<P>One of the disadvantages of the Internet is that we can't see or hear each other. Words on a page are all we have.<P>However, that disadvantage is also an advantage, for us. All we can see is the text on a page. We do not see a person's colour or ethnicity, any physical disabilities. Many people on the board have stated whether they are male of female, but others have not divulged it. Nor do we require details of chronological age, nationality, educational background or such, though many have chosed to give this information.<P>Because of this, we can read the text free of any cultral bias or pre-conceived opinions. Ideas can be discussed in an open environment on their own merits.<P>As Rei says, the common link all members have is the Oath and the ideals it stands for. We use the Eqvites Ivbalis name as, for want of a better term, "branding". Things like the web site, the T-Shirts, etc. may act as a lens, to focus our efforts but at the end of the day the name and the organisation matters very litte.<P>If you stop and help somebody change a flat tyre by the side of the road, that's a good an chivalrous act. And whether or not you put CI (or KI) after your name and wear a pretty T-Shirt, the tyre will still get changed. Somebody will receive a kindness, and hopefully pass it on.<P>In the end, actions speak louder than words. And whilst EI may occasionally act as a group for some things, it's still up to each individual person to live up to the Oath they swore to themselves.<P>PIQE,
Sir Greg<P><P>------------------
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Postby Ravidel Terrant on Sat Aug 11, 2001 8:03 am

I have to agree with all of you, The
Order of Jubal is a very singular thing. Chivalry means a diffrent things to diffrent people. But I must respond to this<P>"IMHO, organised marches, prowling the streets looking to do the boyscout thing, media soundbytes ect are not the best way to achieve this -- let other groups and other orders do that if that is their wish" <P>Now I find nothing wrong with showing support for a cause that all agree with but you do not have to be vocal about it. Ok, the boyscouts, I feel, are a neo-facist organization instated after the war makers in our country saw what Hitler's youth movement accomplished. Likening my or any other Order to them is a very grave insult. Also if you do anything in this world you need some form of media coverage or you have no support from the public, the lick on the CotC web site is media enough for this group, but, it is media. Otherwise how would you get new members? word of mouth is a speading of info too.<P>
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Postby Rei on Sat Aug 11, 2001 11:09 am

well said sir<P>unlike Orders or groups which are geographically focussed (ie: can see each other, and interact F2F) we are dispersed and fragmented....we cross the spectrum, not only of place and culture, but also of religion, political affliation, personal orientation, the whole gamut.<P>i think the only link we want or need is the common desire to make the world a better place through the reintroduction of chivalry in our daily lives.<P>IMHO, organised marches, prowling the streets looking to do the boyscout thing, media soundbytes ect are not the best way to achieve this -- let other groups and other orders do that if that is their wish. Listening to some other posters, I for one now know and even take some comfort in the fact that there are others out there who operate in different ways but have the same key aims in mind. If they want to shout it from the rooftops, so be it. If they want to work formally in secret, so be it. If I want to work in small and mysterious ways, struggling to fulfil the oath I took in increments that suit both me and my community, so be it.<P>Different strokes and all...<P>/ramble<P>Rei<p>[This message has been edited by Rei (edited 08-11-2001).]
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Postby Kanaeda Kuonji on Tue Aug 21, 2001 2:48 am

There is a saying by Friedrich Nietzsche that comes to mind:<P>"When fighting monsters, take care, lest you become a monster...for when you stare long into the Abyss, the Abyss begins to stare back."<P>My point? Keep in mind what you are against, and be careful that you do not become that which you hate. It happens all too often.<P>------------------
Rodney Dean, CI of the Order of the Knights of Jubal.<P>"The mystery of love is greater than the mystery of death." --Oscar Wilde<P>"Ardente veritate/Urite mala mundi. (Burn with truth/Scorch the world of evil.)"- Translated from "Liberi Fatali" theme of Final Fantasy 8
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