Thoughts......Kinda Random

The noble Order of the Knights of Jubal traces its origins back to the Year Two Thousand A.D., when a group of distinguished persons of good and true character, founded the order to promote chivalry and honour. The order takes its name from our leader, Alexander Jubal McRae, who on two (so far) occasions has been seriously injured, in one case fatally, defending an innocent woman from attackers.

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Postby Seldom on Sun Jul 22, 2001 12:57 am

::smile:: Sadly, I am not monotheist, let alone of a christian bent. The philosophy I have become associated with is of a particularly open nature. We do not believe in God, or Allah, or any divine force. We stand aside and have come to the conclusion that belief is the foundation of Faith, and Faith is the foundation of salvation. This belief may be alien to you, but it is true to us, as your scripture is true to you. Note that I did not say "there is no God, there is no Allah..", I said we do not believe in them. We are entitled to our belief and our way the same as you are. <P>One of our main tenets is not to speak to others as though we knew the truth, because we are not certain that our way is the only way. We learn never to say "There is no..." or "you are wrong in believing..." or ever invalidating another's beliefs. It is the right of all people to pursue their own path in life, and no church or power has the right to inhibit that path, so long as that path is peacable and without inexcusable offense against others. <P>So, while you may disagree with my views, they are my views. I will not tell you there is no god, because not only do I not find that a certainty, but I know you would never believe me. Likewise, I would be most appreciative if you would be so kind as to not state your beliefs to me as fact. I find that in practice, an air of reason and openness avoids most personal conflict.<P>That said, it is in fact my belief that there is "a scale on which he puts a grain of sand for each good and bad deed". The concept is referred to as Karma. Intention, Action, Reaction balance throughout life, polarizing the soul into positive energy and negative energy. Upon death, the soul rises or falls to a new position in the Celestial Order based on its balance at the moment of death. No deed is ever missed, no moment forgotten, every word and thought is taken into account, and the balance is maintained.
That is our belief. I have studied the nature of Sin, the absolution in Catholicism, the elements of virtue in Shinto, the reincarnation paths of the Tibetans and Buddhists, the balance of Courage and Wisdom in Native American Animism. I have been as thorough as my time and mind have allowed. The beliefs I have now are the culmination of my research. They are purely mine, entirely individual, and I have no intention of preaching them, or attempting to enforce them on the public. As such, I am confident in my freedom to believe anything I wish. <P>-Seldom
Knight True of the Three Orders<P>"What I know is only what I know... you cannot know it. What you know is only what you know... I cannot know it. What I know is this, and only this, 'I know nothing'. Now tell me... what do you know?"
-Matma Tanjid, Treatise on the Nature of Wisdom in the World.
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Postby Star Of Mars on Sun Jul 22, 2001 2:35 am

Another take on Karma:
The threefold law of Wicca ..<P>"Ever mind the Rule of Three
Three times what thou givest returns to thee
This lesson well, thou must learn:
Thee only gets what thou dost earn!"
<P>------------------
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-S. G. Tallentyre, The Friends of Voltaire <P>Blessed Be
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Postby Zolgar on Sun Jul 22, 2001 4:20 am

I do not really state them as fact.. I know I come off that way alot, but, in general, I don't mean them (Now, sometimes, I do.. But, that's beside the point).<P>I have always been very strong in arguments, or discussions, and often end up coming off like "I'm right, you're wrong so shut the hell up and acknowledge that"<P>And, there is one other thing about that.. It is often hard to state what you believe as fact, to be an opinion, to leave it open to not be fact.. Myself, I dislike doing it, because when I state it that way, it often comes off as "This is what I think, but, I'm not sure", and, when something comes off that way, it shows a weakness to the person you're arguing with.. One they will often exploit.<P>------------------
To look death in the face
To end life, to take life
To damn this infernal race
Slay a man, slay his wife
Why, God, is it so simple
To destroy all we know
To make this world a temple
unto the demise we sow
And yet, it is so hard
to bring even the slightest
change to raise the standard
and, for once, give the world rest<P>(Okay, so, I'm not a good poet.)
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Postby Seldom on Sun Jul 22, 2001 10:42 am

I have always felt so much of Wicca to be rather trite... like a watered down version of feminist hermiticism. <P>And yes, Zolgar, I agree. The sense of impotence one receives when "diluting" one's beliefs can be quite frustrating. Friendly discussion, as we are accustommed to, allows one to safely lower one's sense of adamant adherence to allow for calmer interactions. The number of fights I have avoided by being understanding of the views of others is staggering. Though, there are the days that I hate to let go. I am very quiet on those days. I have yet to discover a point worth fighting over.<P>And, though you do seem a bit adherent, you are much more emminently reasonable than a good 80+ percentage of the population. Do not worry over much.<P>-Seldom
Knight True of the Three Orders<P>
"I am a broken man, made whole by my belief in a simple fact. My intensity, my power, comes from my belief, and my only belief is in this one thing, this thing that makes me whole; I am a broken man."<P>-Darius, Of the Soul and the Powers of Belief.
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Postby Zolgar on Sun Jul 22, 2001 10:55 am

*grins* I rarely find points worth fighting over.. but I fight anyways.. I just enjoy a good argument, so long as it's not with an asshole who thinks how you argue is "I don't give a damn about your fucking stupid opinion, you fucking queer" (Okay.. They're normally not like that.. Normally they make less sense, and are more vulagr, but, you get the point.)<P>And, in response to <u><i>"And, though you do seem a bit adherent, you are much more emminently reasonable than a good 80+ percentage of the population. Do not worry over much."</i></u> Thanks, I've heard that before, quite a few times.. Even had several go so far as to say they respected my opinion more than they do most.. But, I wouldn't go that far.. I'm just another freak *grins*<P><P>------------------
To look death in the face
To end life, to take life
To damn this infernal race
Slay a man, slay his wife
Why, God, is it so simple
To destroy all we know
To make this world a temple
unto the demise we sow
And yet, it is so hard
to bring even the slightest
change to raise the standard
and, for once, give the world rest<P>(Okay, so, I'm not a good poet.)
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Postby Silver Adept on Tue Jul 24, 2001 7:03 am

*peeks head in... and quickly ducks as as a multitude of weaponry passes within inches of his head.* <P>Sorry about not getting around to this before, but I wanted to see what happened. <P>I suppose first, I should apologize. English is a bad language at best, and I'll be the first to admit that it causes confusion. <P>My error was within the scope of the word "here." I meant it to be "here." as in "this thread." However, it was mistaken for "here, on this board." <P>The first is correct, the second is not. The discussion of religion is an integral part to the KOJ, because from religion comes the ideals of what is "right" and "wrong." By discussion of religion and it's ideas (along with ethics and social contract as well, I never want to neglect the secular side of morals...) we can come up with a workable idea of what is "the right" that we are sworn to uphold that all Knights and CI's can agree to. <P>So, I'm sorry about the confusion. However, it did produce what I believe to be an excellent discussion. <P>Zolgar, you're right. By stating what one believes to be fact as opinion lessens the strength of the conviction and makes you appear weaker. <P>In the same regard, it can make you appear to be bull-headed and stubborn. <P>Seldom, I'd like to hear more about what belief system you profess to. It sounds interesting. Of course, if you can't reveal it to those not in it, that's acceptable too. I'm not asking for secrets, but I am trying to build a knowledge base of religion and philosophy. (I hate to get caught out in the cold in any social situation, because then I feel awkward, and much like an outsider. I don't like feeling like an outsider.) <P>And then, just when you thought this thread was done... <P>Err, a quick question for those involved and those following. <P>Is it possible for two people to be absolutely convinced of their beliefs and still be able to respect another's?<P>I think it is.
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Postby BandMan2K on Tue Jul 24, 2001 7:03 am

(smiles at Seldom and Zolgar as they make up and stop the mudslinging.)<P>Remember, this forum is about people's actions, not their ideas about the Almighty. Personally, i'm a lot like Seldom now, but 5 years ago, i was Zolgar. I was a Baptist, read the bible, went to church, but i was filled with rage and had thoughts that would make Hannibal Lecter look like Pollyanna (no kidding) Now i'm not a Baptist or a Christian, but i don't hate those of the other religions. One of my best friends is a Jehovah's Witness, and he can be a bit of a zealot, but i've tried to understand where he's coming from and i see him for who he is, a Fanatic with Anime, like me. Take that into account.<P>
Oh... and the idea about what is good and what is bad? That my friends...is left to the individual. There's no Panacea that will solve the answer that "________ is what good means" Good Deeds and feelings are different to everyone, but for our reasons, the guidelines of Chivalry are what drives us and thus our ideas about Good and Evil.<P><P>------------------
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Postby BandMan2K on Tue Jul 24, 2001 7:19 am

BTW: Zolgar: I believe in God. You don't hold the monopoly as Christians for God. I just don't think that he's only for Christians.<P>(For some reason, i'm remembered of an episode of South Park where some recent "non-living" people are in Hell and ask "why they were there, they followed God, in their different beliefs and did good things, so why were they in Hell?" The guy's answer? The correct religion is the MORMONS. That's right the Morom Church. Kind of makes me laugh a bit.)<P><P>------------------
Sir Howard Seelye, KI:
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Postby Jim Brockman on Tue Jul 24, 2001 8:38 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silver Adept:
<B>And then, just when you thought this thread was done... <P>Err, a quick question for those involved and those following. <P>Is it possible for two people to be absolutely convinced of their beliefs and still be able to respect another's?<P>I think it is. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree. It would be very diffucult to find someone who believed Exactly as you do on EVERY subject. Therefore, if we stop repecting those who believed differently than ourselves we will become lonely, bitter individuals.<P>Trust me I've seen it.<P>Like some of you I have studied several "religions". Probably not enough to be considered an expert in any of them. (Though I am an ordained minister in a non-denominational 'Christian' Church).
What I have mainly discovered is that <B>most</B> of the religions teach the same things as the core of their beliefs. <P>As an example, look at my signature. There I quote Confucious (I know it is spelled different). Though he never claimed any devine right, his teachings have become become a religion.<P>In the King James Bible, Jesus teaches to do to others as you want them to do to you.
Confucious just worded it differently, do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you.<P>With few exceptions religions teach us how to live with each other. True, their creation stories differ and some of the finer details conflict.
But who is to say which one is correct. I personnally, know of some misstranslations in the King James Bible which greatly changes the meaning of the text. I am sure there are other errors and that this exists in all religions, including the one known as "science".<P>So it is my oppinion that, none of us can afford to be 'High and Mighty, I am right and you are wrong'. Which (back to Silver's question) is what we would be doing if you we could not respct the feelings of those around us due solely differences in faith.<P>Thanks for letting me ramble
<P>------------------
"What you don't want yourself, don't do to others"
"If you desire to establish youself, Establish others"
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Postby TheVagabond on Wed Jul 25, 2001 12:47 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Brockman:
<B> I personnally, know of some misstranslations in the King James Bible which greatly changes the meaning of the text.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The King James version of the Bible does indeed contain a remarkable number of translation errors. The Jerusalem Bible or the New American Bible are supposed to be better translations, however there are scholars who now have access to the Dead Sea Scrolls that are supposed to be working on a more "accurate" translation of the original text.<P>The main problem was that most modern translations are translations of translations of copies of translations. A couple of typos here and there, and the whole ball of wax is off.<P>------------------
Sir Louis Martin Carvalho, II
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Postby Jim Brockman on Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:05 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheVagabond:
<B> The main problem was that most modern translations are translations of translations of copies of translations. A couple of typos here and there, and the whole ball of wax is off.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Add into those difficulties the belief of the translator.
Even the most dilegent and honest translator cannot help but to put his/her 'twist' on things when it comes to sections that could have double meanings, or where no clear transation exists.
Plus, there is good evidence that certain texts have been left out of some of the more common versions because they didn't reflect the belief of the translator/compiler.<P>
<P>------------------
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Postby Seldom on Wed Jul 25, 2001 1:53 am

My Faith (I hesitate to call it a religion as it lacks a structure of belief and testament) is not a function of my Order, though many within it are similar in thought, and is not at all a secret. As such I am more than willing to speak of it. However, my discussions on Faith, especially mine, become exhaustive. In order to not subject the board at large to my theological lexicon, Email me with a more narrow query and I will respond as best I can. Feel free to bury me alive in email, I exist in a state of chronic insomnia and therefore have plenty of time to read and write mail.<P>As for mutual respect of other zealots (yes I qualify myself there), i believe it occurs reliably, but in two forms. There is enlightened respect, which is the knowledge that your displeasure with a persons beliefs will have no positive results, and the accedance that they are entitled to their own beliefs. And there is Deliberate Ignorance/Avoidance, where-in we ignore the subject at large, and quietly assume all people agree with us regardless. I have met a sad number of people who fit the second form. Ignorance amazes me sometimes.. but that is another subject.<P>-Seldom
Knight True of the Three Orders.<P>"Have you seen the Matrix? Karl Jung would have a field day with that..."
to which my friend responded...
"But I already know Kung Fu.."
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Postby Zolgar on Wed Jul 25, 2001 2:41 am

*mutters* One day sinse i lasted posted.. one bloody day, and now look at it, I have 200 poss to read on ths thread alone! *snickers* Okay.. so not 200.. but close enough.. <P>To start wil, well answer Silver: <I><u>"Is it possible for two people to be absolutely convinced of their beliefs and still be able to respect another's?"</u></I><P>It is, I am proof of that. Sometimes I may not seem to respect anothers opinions, but, I do (.. Well.. most of the time...). My personal veiws differ from those of my parents.. Those of my Rabbi (preacher/teacher), those of most everyone I know.. They don't differ so strongly from some, yet, they still do. I hold what I believe to be true, and, it takes more tha someone just saying "Well, this is right" .. Now, sometimes, things change abit.. When I learn something different, I catalouge it, think over it, and decide if it seems true to me.<P>Next comes Bandman: <I><u>most of his flipping post, and I don't feel like adding that much to this post.. Scroll up and read it ya lazy bum! <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"></u></I><P>First off, I don't go to church anymore (Getting FORCED to go every week gets you burned out.. very rappidly), I rarely really read the bible (I prefer to spend hours engrossed in a novle than some ook that tells me what I should and shouldn't do), I'm not often filled with rage.. But, I will admit that I am of a .... very sinfull mindset.<P>As for the comment about your friend, well, I'm something like messianic jewish.. But not really.. I play more violent video games than anyone can count, I roleplay, I play female characters for that matter.. and do any number of other things that people don't assosciate with good christian men. *grins*<P>For your last part, that, I agree with in entirety.. Thats a point I made in the first post I did on here,<P>Second post of yers: <I><u>"BTW: Zolgar: I believe in God. You don't hold the monopoly as Christians for God. I just don't think that he's only for Christians."</u></I><P>Sure as hell don't.. There are many who have the 'one god' beliefe, and many of those, their God shows many of the same attribute of the Jewish God. Note I said the Jewish one, not the Christian one. The Christian God stems from the Jewish god.. The only true difference is many 'Christians' don't believe the old testimate is important anymore.. I can't recall if it was my dad or my Rabbi who said this but something along the lines of "When i was younger, I thought there were two Gods, the old testimate God, and the new testimate God, I thought the OT God was a mean, wrathfull God, while the NT God was an ever loving, all forgiving God."<P>That's how most Christians seem to see it, even if they truely believe that there is only one God, they still seem to think that God changed.. Now, how we veiw Him is changed..<P>I won't even touch your southpark comment <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/tongue.gif"><P>And, all the rest really doesn't apply to me, no do I feeal like taking the time to read every bit of it, and then send a few hours typing in response.. So, in closing, I'll just give an ammusing little thing (the comments on the King James bibles spawned this)<P>You all know how there are those who have the opinion of "No Bible is right, except the KJV!!" (mayb not said so strongly, but, you get the drift.) Well, some time ago, my dad got an email forwarded to him that, while I can't recall exactly, it basically on and on in the vein of "These words which I comand you today, though imperfect as they may be for this language has not been created yet......" All in King James english.. *snickers* I just though some of you guys might find that ammusing..<P>*begin added stuff is reply to "Add into those difficulties the belief of the translator.
Even the most dilegent and honest translator cannot help but to put his/her 'twist' on things when it comes to sections that could have double meanings, or where no clear transation exists.
Plus, there is good evidence that certain texts have been left out of some of the more common versions because they didn't reflect the belief of the translator/compiler."*<P>There are still clear translations, for an example, torah scrolls. (I use those as an example because I know what it is to make one of them...) Those which are still in the origenal language, and not translated from another language in to the origenal.. (Ex: Take a Torah scroll, translate it in to english, and then have someone else translate it back in to hebrew.. You will see a difference).<P>But, otherwise, I do agree with you, in translating something from another language, you always lose something. If I take my german translater (PC one) and put in an english word, I'll get lots of examples, and I could make what I wanted to say (Like lt's say I wanted to translate something about a viscious, terrible beast) end up saying something totally different (a viscious, terrible beast of burden, or, pack/riding animal.) *end needless added rant, and end add*<P>
^
^
^
Damn, I type too much.....<P>
------------------
To look death in the face
To end life, to take life
To damn this infernal race
Slay a man, slay his wife
Why, God, is it so simple
To destroy all we know
To make this world a temple
unto the demise we sow
And yet, it is so hard
to bring even the slightest
change to raise the standard
and, for once, give the world rest<P>(Okay, so, I'm not a good poet.)<p>[This message has been edited by Zolgar (edited 07-26-2001).]
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Postby TheVagabond on Thu Jul 26, 2001 1:47 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Brockman:
<B> Plus, there is good evidence that certain texts have been left out of some of the more common versions because they didn't reflect the belief of the translator/compiler.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I took an interesting course at UCLA about the historical Jesus. It was a History class that looked at and studied what we know historically about the man called Jesus. We learned all sorts of fascinating things.<P>Most interesting to me was learning about the "Apocrypha". There are entire "books" that were left out of the bible for various reasons, including an entire additional Gospel (the Gospel of Thomas which is basically a collection of Jesus' parables).<P>------------------
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Postby Zolgar on Thu Jul 26, 2001 3:39 am

Oookay Jennet.. What brought that one on?<P>I think it should have been a new post, because this one has gone all over the place, forgetting its roots..<P>As for if it matters or not. No, it doesn't matter if they do or don't. What matters is they try to.. They seek to make the world a bt better for atleast a few.. That's what matters.<P>It doesn't matter if you -can- cure every form of cancer, solve the polution problems, sucsessfully start a colony on Mars, and, beat every video game out there to boot. What matters is that you try, you may fail.. But atleast you tried to do some good, and probly inspired many who said "I can't.", and made them try too..<P>As i see it, the more good they do, the more people they will make think, the more people they make think, the more people end up being polite atleast.. even if it's one person out of every hundred encountered.. That's still one more than there was before, who in turn will touch the lives of more people (hopefully).<P>Maybe, just maybe, groups like this will better the world.....<P>------------------
To look death in the face
To end life, to take life
To damn this infernal race
Slay a man, slay his wife
Why, God, is it so simple
To destroy all we know
To make this world a temple
unto the demise we sow
And yet, it is so hard
to bring even the slightest
change to raise the standard
and, for once, give the world rest<P>(Okay, so, I'm not a good poet.)
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Postby Silver Adept on Thu Jul 26, 2001 6:19 am

Thank you, Seldom, for your offer. I'll take you up on that matter. <P>In any case, I know about the 'Apocypha'... books that for some reason or another are excluded from current dogma. If I remember rightly, they're supposed to be considered not part of the 'true faith'... (although I'm not sure if there's some hint of demonic inspiration associated as well...)
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Postby Jennet on Thu Jul 26, 2001 9:33 am

Here's a question for you all:<P>Does it really matter whether we make a difference in the outside world by doing this?<P>I say no, it doesn't. I guess I've been reading too much Greek philosophy, because the Greeks claim that the goal of life is happiness. Most of them also claim that the way to happiness is virtue. Hence, whether we make a big difference in the greater world is irrelevant, because we are attempting to find our own happiness via virtue, and (hopefully) others' happiness as well.<P>------------------
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Postby Seldom on Thu Jul 26, 2001 10:33 am

You sound like a Knight of the Merciful Truth, Zolgar. I have two views here.<P>I agree with the Greek philosophers, and those of many other bents when they say that happiness is the truest path in life. I am a firm adherent to that belief. If what you do does not make you happy, it is my belief that your path is in error and you would be best advised to choose another.<P>But, likewise, I am of the Idealist camp that believes in the betterment of the world in the name of virtue. I believe that by easing the suffering of the world, you create happiness, not just in yourself, but in others, and that the path off joy is best walked with many companions. The only true joy, by that logic, is to bring joy to others, and so the only real path is in service to others' joy.<P>So, Yes, it does matter, in my opinion. While our own happiness is of import, to be egocentric is anathema to charity, and charity exists in the heart of chivalry. So, to be concerned only with our own happiness is to betray the attentions of your Order. And a betrayor's happiness is a shallow happiness at best...<P>-Seldom
Knight True of the Three Orders<P>"I exist in joy, so great, that I must hide from it lest it consume me."<P>"I exist in pain, so great, that I must embrace it lest it destroy me."<P>"I exist in purity, so great, that I must debase it lest it blind me."<P>"I exist. And that knowledge is so great that no other is required."<P>-Darius, Answers
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Postby Star Of Mars on Sat Jul 28, 2001 4:19 am

<i>"I have always felt so much of Wicca to be rather trite... like a watered down version of feminist hermiticism. "</i><P>The entire moral belief structure of Wicca revolves around one sentance, so yeah, it might seem trite to you .. maybe you should do more research on it, though? I don't know how much you've done, and can't really give a good arguement until I do. And as for it being feminist hermiticism .. I don't really see what is wrong with trying to give women equal rights .. and .. what do you mean by 'hermiticism'? That's a nice new word, but do you mean "attempting to make ones self apart from society" or "a belief that one should act as a hermit" or .. hmm .. I don't know, could you give a clearer definition of what "feminist hermiticism" means to you?<P>------------------
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Postby Seldom on Sat Jul 28, 2001 10:20 am

My apologies for the use of esoteric terminology... My reaserch into Wicca has been rather extensive, and, sadly, I have found little to sway my orginal view of it.<P>As for feminism, I am a man born of a matriarchy, I am a firm believer that any woman who strives for social and personal equality with men is aiming too low, and I often wonder why women gave up the pampered, withdrawn lifestyle so many of them now crave. But, that said, I am often accused of being a feminist, myself.<P>Hermeticism is a strange word, and your definiton of it would be dictionary correct. However, my reference is to the practice of Hermetic Magic, which is any form of spellcasting or mysticism which relies on rote ritual and particular formulae for its effect. Hermeticism is the practice of such a discipline. <P>Feminist Hermeticism is a term coined by one of my brother scholars, and is a favorite of his. We are firm in our belief that the personifying of Divinity is a step away from truth, not toward it. Hence, defining Divinity as Goddess, is a self-empowering thing, but, in our view, counter-productive. Combining that with the calendar-watching, spell-toting nature of much of Wiccan practice, one finds Feminist Hermeticism. But, not real Feminist Hermeticism. The actual Lillithist cults, the premier practioners of female-gender related hermetic craft, are far more driven and devoted to both the Feminist(their pill is jagged to swallow, even to me, as accepting as I am) and the Hermetic Mysticism (they live by time and day rote and measure spell-casting and portent reading based on the physcial location and time of day) than even the most outrageous Wiccans I have ever met. Hence my "watered down" comment.<P>My apologies, if you found this offensive, I had not intended it as such. I had forgotten that this is not my brotherhood among the Merciful Truth, you understand the nature of abbreviated terminology far better than most. We endeavour to speak little and say much. I hope this clarifies my intent for you somewhat.<P>-Seldom
Knight True of the Three Orders.<P>"Ooooo... ouch..."<P>"What?"<P>"He said that word, and she hit him.."<P>"Oo... the word? ouch... thought he knew better..."<P>-Actual conversation overheard on a Greyhound Bus.
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Postby Seldom on Sun Jul 29, 2001 2:05 am

Well, my First Order of entry was the Quiet Eyes, though the Shields wanted me badly, and their early assignments are based on your interests. At the time, I was very uncertain spiritually, and was seeking answers... so they set me down and told me to start researching. I spent a long time doing just that. Shinto, Zen, 11 kinds of Buddhism, Taosim, Confuscianism, Catholicism, Judiaism, Islam, Native American Animism, Wicca, Pagan Animism, Greek Polytheism, African Polytheism/Animism, even Voodoo. I researched until they all started to run together, and from that melting pot of religious belief grew my own strange branch of thought. When presented my answers to the Quiet Eyes, they promoted me directly from Knight Keeper to Knight Inquisitor, a large jump for those of you who have not read the rankings. 600+ pages of accumulated notes and correlations... Took me almost two years. In the end I discovered that there are only really two froms of religions; Empowering and disempowering. Empowering religions make you feel stronger for your faith, convince you that you are righteous and worthy and tell you to go out and live a good life knowing you are the blessed of Divinity. Disempowering religions teach you that you need Divinity to live, that you are worthless without it, and that, no matter how beautiful a life you live, in the end it will be totally meaningless because you were not devoted totally to Divinity. <P>In the end, each of the religions within each of the two types operated on such stunning parallels that they were almost interchangeable. While many people were very offended by my conclusions, the Order was overjoyed... I had done something none of their membership had been willing to do. I took a stand... and I defended myself for it. <P>But, I have rambled extensively now.<P>and now I will stop.<P>-Seldom
Knight True of the Three Orders.<P>"What do you mean I might as well be Jewish? That's preposterous!!"<P>-**** *****, former Lord of the Order of Quiet Eyes, deposed recently.
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Postby Star Of Mars on Sun Jul 29, 2001 2:17 am

No, I wasn't offended at all *smiles* I didn't know for sure what you meant, is all. I made an oath to myself a long time ago never to get offended or angry or self-righteous unless I understand the other point of view completely. (needless to say, I'm not allowed to get angry often *lol* Because it's rather hard to stop everyone in the middle of an arguement and drag a detailed explanation out of them). Thank you for explaining, it makes alot more sense to me now, and I don't feel quite as silly. <P>------------------
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Postby Zolgar on Sun Jul 29, 2001 3:22 am

Seldom, you forgt the last kind of religon *grins* Totally, utterly without a doubt wrong.. You know, like the church of Elvis, the Great Oarfish Cult (don't ask), Church of the Late Night Beer..<P>However, I would say one other thing, thise time, something serious.<P>You can trace religon, study it in every detail, and still make it apears to do what you want it to.. I'm sure that if I studied religon in that much detail, I could make it seem that they all spewed away from eachother (okay, almost all). We humans have a knack for making things read differently than they do, for example, anyone who is even remotly educated in the bible can use out of context, slightly reworded, or even perfectly quoted and proper conext verses to throw off alot of Christians... I could.<P>So, although you who study it indepth can say they all boil to one, someone else could stdy in depth and say something else? And, anyone who reads their 600+ pages of notes will have to take their word on it, unless they choose to study indepth, and come up with 600+ pages of notes that point to a third conclusion.<P>Another thing, if you use churches to help you get your reasearch, you'll get their doctrin, their beliefe, and that varies.. even so far as between minister and minister.<P>Then, there are traditions (you probly know that Jews are often sticklers for tradition) many churches begin to make religon seem like comandment..<P>And yet another point: Translations, wether your wn, or someone elses.. If you are fluent in ebrew, and read the entire Torah, directly in hebrew, for your research of judism, you ill quite likely read it differently than the next guy, because often time the translations show slight variances in words, that can sometimes change the meanings, so, likly your translation of it will to.<P>All in all, I am not say that you are wrong, nor that you are right, I am simply saying that that is how you chose to see it. Perhaps, one day, I shall try th same thing and see what I think..... Not bloody likly, but, who can say what the future holds for me?<P>*mutters things about his typing habits* I type WAY too much...<P>------------------
To look death in the face
To end life, to take life
To damn this infernal race
Slay a man, slay his wife
Why, God, is it so simple
To destroy all we know
To make this world a temple
unto the demise we sow
And yet, it is so hard
to bring even the slightest
change to raise the standard
and, for once, give the world rest<P>(Okay, so, I'm not a good poet.)
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Postby Greg on Sun Jul 29, 2001 9:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Star Of Mars:
<B>People always smile and say "thankyou" to me when I hold open doors and help with burdens.. is it because I'm female?
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Here's an anecdote which (I think) sums this up quite nicely:<P>A friend of mine (who, incidentally, is a Lutheran pastor) always makes a point of holding the door open for people, both male and female.<P>On one occasion, he held the door open for a woman. After walking through it, she said (in a rather stern tone), "I hope you didn't hold that door just because I'm a woman." <P>He though about it for a second, and replied, "No, I did it because _I'm_ a gentleman."<P>If you think about it for a while, this sums up a lot about the Order of Jubal. The things we do and say, we do them because of who _we_ are and what we believe, not because the person we aid is more diserving or worthy than any other.<P>And because we do these things regardless of who or what the other person is (male or female, Christian or Pagan), it follows that we extend Chivalry to all people.<P>So, to answer Zolgar's question in another thread, I for one would give my life to save the other person, regardless of who they are. Even my enemy (and I have very few, I am happy to say), I would do so, because if I did not, the alternative is to say that I stood by and did nothing when someone was in need, and that person died because of my inaction.<P>And if that was the case, I would have no right to call myself a Knight of Jubal.<P>PIQE,
Sir Greg<P>------------------
-------------
Sir Gregory of Melbourne, KI
Knight of the <A HREF="http://www.ivbalis.org" TARGET=_blank>Order of Jubal</A>
"What I tell you three times is true..." - The Bellman
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Postby Silver Adept on Sun Jul 29, 2001 11:37 am

I understand the need to abbreviate. At times, much information needs to be said without having to explain it or even write it out in full. (think Calculus... little amounts of writing, but a lot of manipulation and information behind it...) <P>However, some of the best teachers take the time to teach it to you the long way and expain all the shorthand. I think you would do well to that degree, Seldom. <P>Another question has entered my head, however. <P>How much research have you done on various religions and philosophies?
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