Thoughts......Kinda Random

The noble Order of the Knights of Jubal traces its origins back to the Year Two Thousand A.D., when a group of distinguished persons of good and true character, founded the order to promote chivalry and honour. The order takes its name from our leader, Alexander Jubal McRae, who on two (so far) occasions has been seriously injured, in one case fatally, defending an innocent woman from attackers.

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Postby Silver Adept on Tue Jul 17, 2001 12:21 am

Morning from USA... even though it's 4:20 P.M. <P>Although I've been born and raised here all my life, I try to make it a point to observe the customs of cultures that I visit. <P>And I'll say that chivalrous individuals are indeed in short supply. However, I hold doors for people and nobody curses at me for it. <P>For DeathScythe, I think that the problem is that you've bought into the false image that everybody believes and the media exemplifies... that the whole world is going to hell and that no one individual can change it... that not even groups can turn back the tide of destructino that we bring upon ourselves. And yet, in the face of what would be overwhelming odds, we continue. Good deeds are done every day, sometimes in small favors, sometimes life-saving heroics. <P>The problem is that the mindset does not promote these deeds (If you want to know why the media's really responsible for prevailing this... you could look at the thread noted Newspapers and Chivalry...) and the media preferes to focus on death rather than life because it sells. One million deaths is more important that three million lives changed by acts of kindness. <P>My only adivce is: See the lie for what it is. Refuse to believe it. The truth of the world will then open up to you. Do good deeds yourself. Fight Satan's lies of despair and hoplessness.
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Postby Jim Brockman on Tue Jul 17, 2001 12:37 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Deathscythe:
<B> Gee, could it be because everyone is too damn lazy to give a shit about anyone but themselves? Don't you realize that we're just acting like every other species in nature? Survival of the fittest, and screw the others. If someone is too pathetic to carry their own luggage, don't travel. If they can't open the door to the grocery store, then you better have a big family, and a big farm, otherwise you're starving.<P>Every species disappears for one reason or another, no matter how intelligent. <P>Look, not that I don't admire you people here for trying. But there's really no point in trying to encourage chivalry, it died off with the medieval knights. Helping people won't give any others an idea. It justs gets you a thank you. You think you can make a difference, but I hate to break it to you, you can't.<P>People are going to go on being people, and that's how it's gonna be. In the end, we're going to destroy our own race, or God will do it for us.<P>
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Deathscythe, please don't take this as an insult. I mean nothing against you personally. <P>However, your comment illustrates the problem we face. Chivalry isn't dead. It is just being insulted and ingored by those people who can't appriciate it.
People like Deathscythe here, even though they 'admire' us for trying, their attitudes are actually encouraging the death of chivalry, honor, justice and plain good manners.<P>But not all is loss. Our presence, and the other people in the world who believe as we do, can make a difference.<P>How????
Simple: keep being Polite, Courageous, Honorable and Just; Continue to help those in need; and when ever anybody asks why, tell them about chivalry. If they continue to show an interest direct them to <A HREF="http://ivbalis.org/" TARGET=_blank>http://ivbalis.org/</A> <P>This is probably the most Courageous thing we can do. Keep fighting 'the good fight' even when all seems lost.
Victory would be sweet, but I doubt we will see it in our lifetime. In fact, as the pessimists keep pointing out we may never win.
I say fight any way. The journey is as important as the destination. <P><P>------------------
"What you don't want yourself, don't do to others"
"If you desire to establish youself, Establish others"
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Postby Sekhmet on Tue Jul 17, 2001 12:52 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Deathscythe:
<B> Look, not that I don't admire you people here for trying. But there's really no point in trying to encourage chivalry, it died off with the medieval knights. Helping people won't give any others an idea. It justs gets you a thank you. You think you can make a difference, but I hate to break it to you, you can't.<P>People are going to go on being people, and that's how it's gonna be. In the end, we're going to destroy our own race, or God will do it for us.<P>
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
WELL....::rolls up sleeves::sharpends ginsu knives::<P>JUST so you know...not all medieval knights are gone. There are still a few world-wide sects out there...You just gotta know where to be lookin'.<P>And JUST so you know...not all people are as jaded as you. Bein' nice does change something: it means that there's one more considerate person in the world.<P>And JUST so you're aware of it...people may always be people, and some people are just the nice types. Survival of the fittest, babe, but the loud-mouthed braggarts who irritate everybody else rarely survive TOO long.<P>And JUST so you think about it...God's going to destroy us, eh? Well, what about those who don't acknowledge God? Won't they survive, because they can't be destroyed by something -- or someone -- that they believe doesn't exist...<P>Sabi, CI
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Postby Uber_Munchkin on Tue Jul 17, 2001 2:08 am

Hi all,<P>I just recently posted my oath to the board and I'll quite happily admit that I'm chuffed there is an organisation like this in existence. Now I live in the UK, I don't know how many of you others do but if there are any other brits out there *waves* hi.<P>Anyway, to the point of it. Chivelry is what we're supposed to stand for isn't it. Doing the right thing and helping those weaker than others. So I'm interested in other peoples thoughts on the subject. I mean what defines a 'good deed'? <P>I would say, personally, that a good deed is anything done out of kindness without wish for recompense and without hesitation. Simple things like holding a door for the person behind you, helping someone with their luggage, helping a horribly lost tourist to find their destination. These are all good deed which if everyone performed would make the world a better and nicer place. <P>As far as I can see it this is a belief that permeates all levels of life, things like changing the bottle on the water cooler at work and making more coffee when you take the last cup these could be called 'good deeds', but I like to see them as just the basic politeness. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"><P>I don't know about the state of things in the USA but over here most of the time if you hold a door for someone they either give you a 'you want a fight' look (if they're a bloke) or an 'are you checking out my ass' look (if they're a woman). If you offer to help with the luggage they think you're a thief or want something in return. But there are a few people who don't yet automatically assume an ulteriour motive, the ones who say a simple 'thankyou' and while those few exist I think the Knights have a chance.<P>Lastly I must say I am proud to be a Companion to those noble Knights and hope one day to prove myself worthy of the title Knight of the Order.<P>Steve (My real name)<P>------------------
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Postby Zolgar on Tue Jul 17, 2001 3:48 am

I can rant alot on this one, bu, I'm not gonna right now. I'll just make a few points:<P>Scythe: If you think like that, keep it to yourself. theses fine people don't need someone telling them "Everything you do is for not, the world is going to hades in a handbasket. And you can't change it." And, if they did.. That's my job <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"><P>Now, dun' go argueing that I'm tearing them apart in some of my posts, because I'm not, I'm bringing up points that I question about them, in search of honest answers.<P>Groups like this don't need people just saying they are wrong and hopeless and all that, they need encouragement. Maybe it's true, maybe they are hopeless. But, even so, they are trying. If no one ever tried for something that they were told was hopeless, we would still be walking everwhere, and beating whatever we ate to death with out fists.<P>
And Sek: I do agree with most of your points. Except the last.. Quite honestly, the last one is complete BS. I'll give you a complete real-world example for it: Let's say there's someone who doesn't believe nukes exsist. If they don't believe thay exists, will one still kill them?<P>Disbelieving something does nt make it any less real. To you, it might. But I can disbelieve in guns, and keep disbelieving in them right up untill someone shoots me with one.. I am still just as dead as if I believed.<P>And, for that matter God isn't exactly going to just destroy us, he will destory those who do not believe, those who have not taken His salvation. And more than that, he is going to destroy everything, the world ts self. In Revelations it speaks of seeing a new heaven and a new earth. While I know you don't believe that it's true... If you use God in an example, expect to have those who believe in Him to correct you <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"><P>Okay.. So I said more than I intended..<P>------------------
This war we fight is the hardest, most dangerous one ever. It has no bigging, no end, all are forced to fight it. Man, woman and child. No armor will protect you, no weapon will give you sway. It drives many mad, causeing them to do irrational things, even kill themself, because they know the only way to end this war is death. The enemy we must face in fighting this one, is one that we know much about, the most powerfull enemy ever, the one who knows all of our weaknesses.<P>It is, our mind.
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Postby Sekhmet on Tue Jul 17, 2001 6:14 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zolgar:
<B>Let's say there's someone who doesn't believe nukes exsist. If they don't believe thay exists, will one still kill them?<P>Disbelieving something does nt make it any less real. To you, it might. But I can disbelieve in guns, and keep disbelieving in them right up untill someone shoots me with one.. I am still just as dead as if I believed.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well my dear, allow me to point something out to you. Nukes are physical things. Nukes have been proven to exist. The Race of Man acknowledges this, by a majority. But can we put our hands on God? Can we see Him as we see nukes? Have we proven beyond reasonable doubt that the God of Christianity exists? Or that any other deity is a physical power? If we had either of those answers, then there wouldn't be quite as many problems among religious sects as there have been. Those who are Muslim do not follow the edicts of the Christian God, and they are not struck down because of His displeasure. They do not believe in Him, and so He cannot hurt them. Only those who believe in His powers can be harmed by them. Until God comes over for tea and scones, I will be forced to doubt His existence. And even then, there will be nothing to stop me from continuing to discount his omniscience in the face of the fact that if He exists, then so might the deities of other religions, past and present and future.<P>Unless they all want to come over for tea and scones.<P>------------------
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Postby Zolgar on Tue Jul 17, 2001 7:17 am

I never said you couldn't disbellieve it, I just said you're fricking wrong when you say that if you don't believe in Him, he cannot hurt you.<P>You may discount what happens to you as other sources, but, eberything comes from Him. He does not strie down those who disbelieve in Him for a simple fact, He does not want to.<P>You see, God hates none. I forget where, but the Bible states that He mourns the death of the wicked, rejoices over the death of those who are His. This may sound screwed up to you, but think on it a moment: the death of the wicked is the end, there is no longer hope that they will see His light, however, those who are already His, when they die, they leave the pain and suffering of this world to be with Him in heaven.<P>Now, you may ask if he is so loving and mercifull, why'd he make hell? I really don't know. Maybe He made it as an insentive to follow Him?<P>You can ask so many questions that would try and prove me wrong. I'll admit. I cannot answer most.. But, if you really wish to ask them, feel free to contact me via ICQ: 23503280, or AIM (SN: Yverthel ). But I dun' wanna flood the board.<P>And I have one last point to make for you: We have not proved He DOES exsist.. But we also have not proved he doesn't. And do you know what's happend to most who sought all the evidence thy could to prove that He did not exists?<P>That's right: Instead of finding what they wanted, they found stronger evidence that he was real than not.<P>[Heh, BTW, watch saying He cannot hurt you.. He has a sense of humor after all, He might just prove you wrong.. Or come for tea and scones.. But, you wouldn't beieve it was him, even if He told you everything you ever wanted to know <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif">]
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Postby Sekhmet on Tue Jul 17, 2001 10:18 am

Dear Steve,<P>Hello from the USofA! I myself am I transplanted UK-er. It's nice to meet you. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"> As for the state of things over here, it's not looking too good. There aren't a lot of people who hold doors, help with luggage, etc (to borrow your examples) -- and if there are any, they certainly aren't swarming Las Vegas en force! I too am glad to see there is an organization taking advantage of the Internet community to keep the chivalrous part of world culture alive and kickin'.<P><3
Sabi, CI<P>------------------
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Postby Deathscythe on Tue Jul 17, 2001 10:53 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sekhmet:
<B>Dear Steve,<P>Hello from the USofA! I myself am I transplanted UK-er. It's nice to meet you. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"> As for the state of things over here, it's not looking too good. There aren't a lot of people who hold doors, help with luggage, etc (to borrow your examples) -- and if there are any, they certainly aren't swarming Las Vegas en force! I too am glad to see there is an organization taking advantage of the Internet community to keep the chivalrous part of world culture alive and kickin'.<P><3
Sabi, CI<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Gee, could it be because everyone is too damn lazy to give a shit about anyone but themselves? Don't you realize that we're just acting like every other species in nature? Survival of the fittest, and screw the others. If someone is too pathetic to carry their own luggage, don't travel. If they can't open the door to the grocery store, then you better have a big family, and a big farm, otherwise you're starving.<P>Every species disappears for one reason or another, no matter how intelligent. <P>Look, not that I don't admire you people here for trying. But there's really no point in trying to encourage chivalry, it died off with the medieval knights. Helping people won't give any others an idea. It justs gets you a thank you. You think you can make a difference, but I hate to break it to you, you can't.<P>People are going to go on being people, and that's how it's gonna be. In the end, we're going to destroy our own race, or God will do it for us.
<P>------------------
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Postby Atlas_v1.1 on Wed Jul 18, 2001 2:59 am

Most of what I want tto say, has already been said here, and I won't repeat if I can avoid it.<P>Deathscythe: I would advise you to either lighten up - I know the vast majority of humanity are bastards, as dictated by nature. But does that mean we have to bow down to our baser sides? After all, we do refer to ourselves as intelligent. As being capable of more than our instincts show. Time to prove that point, then.
And how better to do that, than to band together to fight off the baser side, supporting each others in our endeavour to resurrect one of the best ideas humanity ever had: That the strong help the weak. The words we swear remind us to help those who need it, whether they need their luggage carried up or down a staircase, or protection against deadly enemies. Whether it is small or big.
What we want to do is to prove that humans can be something other than evil, egocentric bastards. We want to show the world that there is another way, a way that aims to better the rest of the world, and thus to better everyone's place and situation.
The cornerstone of this philosophy is to think positively. To do the things necessary, and not despair even if it looks bleak and impossible - it isn't. It just looks that way sometimes.<P>Hmm. I seem to have written another long rant. Oh well. Expect a post from me soonishly, wherein I will look at the four principles of chivalry that we swear upon. I hope to have this up by Friday.
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Postby Zolgar on Wed Jul 18, 2001 5:08 am

Silver, I already did that, I posted a respose and then said that if it was to be continued to contact me in another way.<P>Granted, I am one to 'bit my thumb at athority' (as Sek put it), atleast, quite often.. And quite honestly, in this case, you were out of place. A discussion on religon is out of place in many places, but is it really out of place here?<P>The Knights of Jubal are a group who upholds the right, in varying forms. And, how many people get what is right and wrong from how they were raised? And how much of that comes from a religon?<P>The argument of religon is one that can o alot of interesting things here, as most have their own way of seeing things. And, if one does not wish to partake in it, they do not have to.<P>Errr.. I think I'll totally get off on a rabit trail here.. What I meant to say was "Silver, pay more attention before you call down on people for something." *nods*<P>And, Scythe: Yes, the knights are dead.. quite dead, dead and long sinse rotted.. But, here are two points for you to think on:<P>1) There are those who still think as they did, and will still uhold chivlry, despite those thatorigenally upheld it are dead.<P>2) Acording to the belifes of some, they are only dead in body, and are now alive as someone else.. (You know, reicarnation.)<P>Wether you believe the second or not, you cannot argue the first.
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Postby Sekhmet on Wed Jul 18, 2001 6:52 am

How about a truce, Zolgar? I really don't have the time or the energy to carry on a cumbersome philosophical discussion at this time of year. I also don't have all my philosophy textbooks at hand where I can site direct sources from the unit on truth. As it stands: I am not about to adhere fervently to the Christian faith. Whether Catholic or Protestant, it has the shades of everything I hate about religion in general. However, I do own about four versions of the Bible, which I sit down to read often. I also fast during Ramadan, meditate, light candles in front of my statue of Buddha while repeating Buddhist mantras, and celebrate the old Celtic holidays of Beltain, Samhaine, Midsummer and Midwinter. And I am not yet struck down.<P>It is thought that God can see, all at once, everything which will happen in the course of the Earth. If that is the case, then He knows why I do what I do, and then He shall also forgive me. Hasn't this sin of mine already been paid for? And even if he doesn't forgive me enough to let me into Heaven (surely regularly going to church is doing something for my reputation), then I am happy to announce that I have never sunburned, only tanned, and that at heart I am a rather sweet little pyro. Dante said that the Ancient Romans went to Christian Hell because they had been deprived of the knowledge of God and His ways. Well, if that is true, then I shall be most happy to talk philosophy and such with all of them. Being a scholar of Classical Latin that thought excites me. You would probably understand why if you thought about it.<P>------------------
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Postby Deathscythe on Wed Jul 18, 2001 7:37 am

Sekhmet, all medieval knights are dead. Medieval refers to a time period from 1200 A.D to 1400 A.D. It's not humanly possible for a knight from that time to still live today. There may be a few sects who still uphold the customs and practices of the knights, but all the ones we know by name are long gone.
<P>------------------
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Postby Silver Adept on Wed Jul 18, 2001 7:52 am

Scythe: That may be true. Physically speaking, there isn't anybody who survives to modern times. But the customes still do, and they're still worth looking at and upholding. <P>Zolgar/Sekh: Truce. Enforced truce, admittedly, but truce. I'm putting my foot down on this one. Philosophical discussions like that are best relegate to elsewhere and other places. Not to say that they aren't enlightening, just that they're not in the right place here.
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Postby Sekhmet on Wed Jul 18, 2001 8:37 am

::curtsey:: Of course, dear Silver. I've never been one to bite my thumb at authority. Remind me to buy you a drink if we ever run into each other. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>------------------
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Postby Atlas_v1.1 on Thu Jul 19, 2001 1:08 am

The entire glory of this project is, we aim to bring it back. Chivalry may have languished as a beggar in our society, but now, at least, it is welcome among some. Others hide behind cynicism and the idea that "it's history". Some few admit that they admire the concept, but have too little faith in themselves to swear upon it.<P>Chivalry may be a historic thing. But have you ever heard the phrase, "Those who forget history are damned to repeat it"? That is about all the bad stuff that happened in the past. But if you remember history, you're also free to pick up the parts that appeal to you (such as chivalry), and make them your own. It is, simply a chance to better oneself.<P>I move a lot in the medieval reenactment and live roleplaying communities here in Denmark. These people often have strong ideas of honour. I am going to see who else I can get into the Order besides me... I hope someday to have a real Danish chapter to associate with. So I will act on it myself.
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Postby Star Of Mars on Thu Jul 19, 2001 1:59 am

Ohio USA here
People always smile and say "thankyou" to me when I hold open doors and help with burdens.. is it because I'm female?
Chivalry = being polite and courteous in general, smiling and nodding when you meet someone, helping those in need, protecting our rights .. I mean, I could go on forever ..<P>------------------
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
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Postby Zolgar on Thu Jul 19, 2001 2:02 am

Religon belongs here as mush as i belong anywehre else.. And the point i brought up still holds "If you don't want to read or take part in it, you don't have to." That's the joy of a forum, you can totally ignore what someone says, or ignore threads.<P>And, I will tell you quite honestly: Humans are not born bad, but they are born with the nature that makes someone bad. Think about it: What's a baby like? "I want this, so if I don't get it, I'm gonna scream and shout and carry on untill I get it." in a aby, that's normal, it's human instict really.. Now, imagine someone like me (6', 190 pounds.) having that kind of atitude, I'd kill people 'cause I didn't get to play with the shiney keys.. That's human nature.<P>Human nature is also survival.. And, for that matter, desire for comfort. As humans, many have gone bac to being somewhat animalistic.. They care only for their own comfort and survival, and don't think about anyone else.<P>The common opinon seems "MY needs and MY wants are more important than anyone elses, and I, in turn have presidence over everyone."<P>The only hope this world has is people like thos in the KoJ, those of us who were raised to be decent people. Our only hope is that we pass it on to our children, and make people think, so that maybe they will teach their children.. Its not really likly but.. It's a hope, a dim one in this wqrld, but, a hope none the less.<P>Needless to say, my opinion of the human race is failing.. I can rant about other things, but, they're just other ways that this world is going to hell in a handbasket..
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Postby BandMan2K on Thu Jul 19, 2001 10:35 am

I agreee with my compatriate Sir Silver, that argument about God and his existance belongs somewhere else. Besides, this organization isn't supposed to be about whether God is real, or only for Christians or whatever. We are here to show that people do NOT have to be just regular people. We can, even if we have to do it with little steps, elevate above the need to do things so that we can get something in return or think that all people are bad. I personally believe in the inherent goodness in all people. People are not born bad, it's a number of factors in how they've been raised that makes people think that acting towards their baser instincts is the way to go. Even if this has to be a Grassroots-type of thing, we will persevere. No more persecution of anyone due to any differences they might have because of all of us being HUMANS!!! Hello!! We're Homo Sapiens, Sapiens meaning Wise if i remember correctly. Deathscythe is entitled to his opinion, and i commend him on saying how he feels towards us. Thankfully, i do not believe in his pessimistic thinking about Societies or Humanity in General. There are WAY more people that behave more nicely to others than those that don't. The Media around the world does show what they can to make people watch so they can see the commercials, and that means sex, death, riots, things that show misery to get ratings are used for stories instead of showing more things like The Baby Jessica Story if any of you remember back in the Early 90's in Texas. every one was rooting to have that child saved. True some people probably thought "That's not my child, i don't give a shit" But not everyone thinks like "i don't give a shit". To better humanity, you must better yourself first. To show the Goodness of Humanity, you must show Goodness yourself... that's what the Order of Jubal is for. Fellow Knights, Companions and all who may read this post, take this humble man's thoughts into your hearts and please open your eyes. <P>I thank you all for reading this and will see you all next time i'm online.
<P>------------------
Sir Howard Seelye, KI:
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Postby Seldom on Fri Jul 20, 2001 1:21 am

"Hold true to thine own beliefs... for Faith, not religion, created God... Faith, not religion, gave unto us a seeking for his name and his face and his virtue... and in seeking virtue do we not all find virtue? If we concern ourselves with virtue, judgement will understand that we discovered virtue, and forgot to stop long enough to question the voice that gave us wisdom. I serve virtue, not the name of virtue... in this is my salvation assured..."<P>Testament of the Three Orders, Chapter 2, excerpts.
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Postby Atlas_v1.1 on Fri Jul 20, 2001 3:26 am

Amen, Seldom.<P>Religion and chivalry have a past together, for sure. But it's not a Christian thing, or belonging to any other religion - it is an integral part of religion to treat others well, as it is in chivalry. They are siblings, not parent and child.<P>That said, it is my experience, that religious discussion tends to tap sore spots on some people (who, in my opinion, take religion far too, eh, religiously...), who then grow angry. This leads to flame wars, or at least, abrasive discussion. Nobody enjoys that, and it can sour the forum it happens in.<P>I agree with the knights on this, religious discussion in and of itself, is not part of EI's reason for existing. Chivalry is.<P>Most religions agree quite well on what people should do to other people. They usually have the following opinion: Don't Do Bad Things.
So do we. That's all the religion we need to discuss, I think.
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Postby Zolgar on Fri Jul 20, 2001 11:18 am

ahh, but there again "Don't do bad things" What determines what is good and what is bad?<P>Heh, and Seldom, you can quote that all you want, but, it's about like me quoting the bible in a religouse argument.. I've always found the idea of quoting a book someone believes s totally false, as grounds to try and convince them that you're right to be pretty stupid..<P>I personally believe it is abit different, faith didn't create god, nothing did, God created religon, which in turn created faith, which in turn makes us believe God is there...<P>*grins* and if you want an idea of the kind of faith we who believe in God have, put a blindfold on really tight, so you can see nothing, and have someone guikd you through a maze by words. That's faith "I cannot see you, I cannot see the maze, but I trust you can see the maze, so I will follow your guidance" .. Infact to quote a song "to trust in a way that I cannot see .. To be guided by a hand I cannot hold, that's what ffaith must be."<P>*rambles on incoherantly because he;s over tired*
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Postby Seldom on Sat Jul 21, 2001 2:30 am

"Be ye not an eloquent man?"<P>"Not I..." said the traveler.<P>"Then carry this, in its pages are the words you seek, written better than you may ever speak them. Now your inelouquence will not mark you as a fool."<P>
Pardon my quotes... they are habit borne of a respect for the sources of the wisdom I am given. As for God, sadly, i have found as much evidence for as against, and as much evidence against as for. In the end, if God is what his followers claim, then he will understand virtue, regardless of intention, and welcome humble and righteous souls into salvation. But I trust not any man, woman, child, or book written by their hands as the source of divinity. If there is a Divinity in the world, I will find it by living well, or dying well. I waste no time in life seeking favor of a name and structure conjured by man. If "god" stands in judgement off me, let him see my life. If that is not enough then I have no reason to regard his opinion.<P>-Seldom
Knight True of the Three Orders.<P>"I don't call him God because, I mean, what if we live our lives all devout, and all, and then, when we die, we go to Hell, cause it turns out, way back when, in ancient times, they mistranslated... and it was supposed to be Bob, or Dog, or anything! Me, I just pray, and have faith that he knows better than me..."
-Jordan Tanner, Stand-Up Comic.
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Postby Zolgar on Sat Jul 21, 2001 4:13 am

Quite honeslt Seldom.. Your life is never enough..<P>Did you ever cuss as a child? Have you ever lied? Have you ever knowingly driven over the speed limit? Have you ever looked after a woman in lust? Done anything that you knew you were not supposed to?<P>Being a good person just isn't enough, God is like a parent "Yes, tommy, I know you cleaned your room, did your homework and took out the trash, but, you still hit your sister so you're still being punihed for that." he doesn't have a scale in which he puts a grain of sand for every good or bad deed you have ever done, and that determines it for him.<P>Sin is sin, no sin is greater or lesser in Gods eye. There are 2 ways in to heaven, utter perfection, and accepting the sacrifice that was made for all of us, the Lamb of God.<P>Heh.. When I'm older and more knowledgable, I might make a good preacher.. What do you think? <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"> <P>------------------
To look death in the face
To end life, to take life
To damn this infernal race
Slay a man, slay his wife
Why, God, is it so simple
To destroy all we know
To make this world a temple
unto the demise we sow
And yet, it is so hard
to bring even the slightest
change to raise the standard
and, for once, give the world rest<P>(Okay, so, I'm not a good poet.)
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