Ok, and to go with, a question to rile things up...

The noble Order of the Knights of Jubal traces its origins back to the Year Two Thousand A.D., when a group of distinguished persons of good and true character, founded the order to promote chivalry and honour. The order takes its name from our leader, Alexander Jubal McRae, who on two (so far) occasions has been seriously injured, in one case fatally, defending an innocent woman from attackers.

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Postby Zolgar on Thu Jun 28, 2001 12:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>in terms of bashing or speeding... i think that they're both moot points. harming or endangering another person, outside of pure on the spot self-defense or defense of another, is against the code of chivalry. period. if you need to get somewhere faster, you can leave earlier. if you disapprove of someone's choices, you can say so. there are options in both circumstances that don't involve endangering anyone physically or emotionally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>But that's not the point I'm makeing, as to what is right or wrong, I agree that both of those are wrong. But not everyone does. Gay bashers do not find what they are doing to be wrong at all, because in biblical times, homosexuality was a stonable offense if I recall right. And if nothing more, it would cause you to be cut off from the tribe.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>even if i felt homosexuality was wrong, i wouldn't hesitate to step in front of a blow for someone who was being assaulted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>To that, I must agree. I have always bee that sort.. This is not to say I wouldn't procede to beat the living hell out of the asshole doing it though... (Or, get the living hell beaten out of me while trying to...) I do not follow the "Way of the leaf" (If you don't know, go read a Wheel of Time book)<P>And lastly, what brought this thought on, though it's not something oof importance now, but hwat if, sometime down the road, ya'll become a known organization? You know, more than just an online club (Which is currently what most would see this as), what happens when one of your members does something that is 'wrong' but they believe is right. We live in a society where one person, doing one deed, can ruin everything for an organization.<P>We do not see all the good the Boyscouts have done for us over the years, no, we see the fact that they are upholding what they believe is right, and not allowing homosexual leaders (Unless they finally bent and changed that). That is an issue I see both sides of, and I believe that what they were doing was right (though many of you may disagree, which if you do, that puts my whole point in to perspective..)
*rants on and on and on and on about all the bad of society and how much life in this day and age sucks*
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Postby Manhattan on Thu Jun 28, 2001 1:26 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zolgar :
<B>But not everyone does. Gay bashers do not find what they are doing to be wrong at all, because in biblical times, homosexuality was a stonable offense if I recall right. And if nothing more, it would cause you to be cut off from the tribe.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>i think that since this is not an organization based on religion, decisions would probably be made based more on our social contract which clearly states that this kind of punishment is not in the hands of the layperson. whether the person whacking someone for being "bad" <B>thinks</B> they're doing wrong or not is irrelevant if they're breaching the social contract which clearly states that you can't physically assault another person for any reason save for your own defense or the defense of someone in distress. <P>and i guess that's the point. i would think that part of chivalry is setting aside your personal opinion in favour of the greater good. anyone who feels that it's a good choice to whallop a defenseless person because they don't agree with them is probably not suited to an organization like that KOJ. no matter what you feel about a person's religion or origin or preference or skin colour, i am fairly sure that most chivalric codes would not be in favour of outright assault. there are other, more noble, ways of disagreeing with people.<P>~mattie, the new kid... shooting her mouth off as usual<P>[edit : i couldn't stand looking at the phrase "religiously based" a second longer... i think the alumni association will be taking back my B.A. English Lit. now.... gah. what was i thinking?]<P>[This message has been edited by Manhattan (edited 06-28-2001).]<P>[edit : hands in her degree herself. argh! bad, bad brain!]<p>[This message has been edited by Manhattan (edited 06-28-2001).]
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Postby Zolgar on Thu Jun 28, 2001 1:39 am

Ok, so, I'm not really intentionally riling things up.. But, knowing how people are, I probly will anyways.<P>What happens if what 2 members believe different things are right? I mean, in all reality, the human mind sees different things to be right and wrong. Where to we draw the line.<P>How many gay bashers believe what they are doing is wrong? How many homosexuals believe homosexuality is wrong? How people believe driving 10 MPH over the speed limit is wrong?<P>All of those are things that some accept, some do, and some despise. Personally, I find all three to be wrong, however, I will still accept someone who is a homosexual.<P>As -I- see it, I will get after people over their sins, when I am perfect. And seeing as I'm never gonna be perfect....<P>Ok, so I have a tendancy to get off on a rabbit trail..<P>
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Postby Zolgar on Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:18 am

OPoint taken. But, that's not exactly what I'm saying.. Those were some examples. I ain't sayin' a gay basher would want to be in such a group, I'm just saying that others might..<P>Here's one you cannot disbute wanting to join: A homosexual.<P>Many believe homosexuality is wrong, including most religious groups. (Again, hypothetical situation of KoJ becoming a known organization) What would happen if it became known that there were several homosexuals in this group? Many churches would consider you to all be rotten sinners, heathens and the like, despite the fact that your common goal is for the bettering of the nation.. Or, atleast some people..<P>What it comes down to is no matter how you try, you'll always have people hating you. Which is no big deal.. Someone will hate you because you're better looking than they are, you have a faster car than they do. But when you're dealing with a group like this one who follows what is "right" with nothing set.. You're asking for problems, people posing questions like mine, only in a manner that is meant to break the wills of many of you, not as a simple inquirey..<P>Now, mind you, I'm a pessimist and often see the worste possable situation, even in the best case scenario.. The liklyhood of ANYTHING I'm saaying actually occuring is fairly low, just an interesing topic to throw at ya <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>-Zolgar the Insane, master of insanity.. And stuff!<P>
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Postby Rei on Thu Jun 28, 2001 7:31 am

<I>Many believe homosexuality is wrong, including most religious groups. (Again, hypothetical situation of KoJ becoming a known organization) What would happen if it became known that there were several homosexuals in this group? Many churches would consider you to all be rotten sinners, heathens and the like, despite the fact that your common goal is for the bettering of the nation.. Or, atleast some people..<P></i><P>Okay, as soon as I read that phrase, the first thought that popped into my head was 'what the frell do we care what a church thinks?' Then second thought was 'hey, I'm a heathen and proud!' *chuckle*<P>I like the idea of 'social contract' to describe the rules that shape our behaviour. We all have personal standards of what is acceptable for us. Some will accept homosexuality (to continue our controversial example!), but some -- because of religious philosophy, upbringing or something else -- will not be able to accept it. In the case of KOJ, again I'd have to ask 'why the frell does it matter' -- our guiding principle, our agreed social contract, is the rules of chivalry. I understand the code of chivalry to apply to ALL -- not just straight people, or white people, or rich people, or men. That's why I'm happy to see ppl saying that whether or not they agree with homosexuality, they'll stop a gay basher anyway. yay!<P>umm, i'll stop rambling now before I become really incoherent.<P>ciao y'all
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Postby BandMan2K on Thu Jun 28, 2001 8:25 am

As i see things, if you go too much indepth with such things, then you will start problems. We here are here for chivalry correct? Homosexuality or the practice of it is not for us to judge, we "draw a line" when someone is persecuted due to their sexual orientation. I somewhat believe in the inate goodness in all people (as Ben Stein puts it, the Buddha nauture in all people) so i don't hate or despise Homosexuals since i am not, but by the same token, you have to look at the "gay bashers" and see things from their perspectives. All people will see what they want to see (percieved reality) so all you can do is have proof to back up any statement you may make, follow it wholeheartedly and then if you're proven to be in the wrong, accept it and move on, perhaps even change your viewpoint. But the person who's viewpoint you want to change MUST be wanting to change it. <P>Thank God i'm taking Sociology right now.<P>That's all from my desk, any approvals or decentors?<P>------------------
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Postby Zolgar on Thu Jun 28, 2001 9:45 am

*sigh* to continue to rile thing up with oddball points, or to let it drop.. That is the question...<P>------------------
This war we fight is the hardest, most dangerous one ever. It has no bigging, no end, all are forced to fight it. Man, woman and child. No armor will protect you, no weapon will give you sway. It drives many mad, causeing them to do irrational things, even kill themself, because they know the only way to end this war is death. The enemy we must face in fighting this one, is one that we know much about, the most powerfull enemy ever, the one who knows all of our weaknesses.<P>It is, our mind.
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Postby Manhattan on Thu Jun 28, 2001 10:06 am

whee... more places to stick my foot in!<P>i think that bringing up the homosexuality issue blurs things a lot. being gay doesn't endanger the lives of others or overstep the bounds of the social contract we abide by to maintain a safe society. all arguments aside, your sexual preference doesn't endanger anyone. if your actions endanger people, that's got nothing to do with your sexuality. believe me, there's jerks on all sides. <P>in terms of bashing or speeding... i think that they're both moot points. harming or endangering another person, outside of pure on the spot self-defense or defense of another, is against the code of chivalry. period. if you need to get somewhere faster, you can leave earlier. if you disapprove of someone's choices, you can say so. there are options in both circumstances that don't involve endangering anyone physically or emotionally. <P>i think these things are probably resolved fairly quickly, to be honest. this isn't about what we feel is right or wrong, it's about the choices we make when we act on those feelings. we've promised to do right and to defend others. those things don't have to be in conflict with each other. even if i felt homosexuality was wrong, i wouldn't hesitate to step in front of a blow for someone who was being assaulted.<P>i hope i'm not being too simplistic here.<P>~mattie
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Postby Jenavia Darkstar on Fri Jun 29, 2001 1:11 am

Religeon, I'm A Pagan and I have no problem letting pepole belive what they want to belive. I know that it's hard not to get on the defencive because i have been attacked by christians on all the pagan groups I have belonged to.I however do not feel that this is important to this group.Dose it mater if we let pepole from all walks of life in .I think not. As long as everyone understands that there are pepole from all walks of life here and respects that.Someones religious ideas or sexual prfrence to be onist is none of our business. I'll will refer to the wiccan rede whick states"Do what thu will but in it harm none". Treat everyone how you would like to be trated. Judge not lest ye be judged. I think these think are more important them careing what others think.
Then again I could be wrong
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Postby Zolgar on Fri Jun 29, 2001 2:19 am

Heh, ok that much is conceded. And I will give ya'll one thing: most of the nicest people I have met have been one of the 'evil' (as in what most consider them) religons (you know, Wiccans, Pagans and whatnot) while some of the biggest scumbags I have met claim to be Christians.<P>And, to throw another thing out for you. You constantly talk of defending someone else with your life, no matter who or what they are. How do you get this from Jubal?<P>Don't go giving me "He's jumped in front of bullets twice." because yes, he has but both of those were for Chelsea, who he loves. The laws of Chivlry do not include getting yourself killed to save someone who means nothing to you. You will find that there are alot of decent people in this world, alot even who will defend you, and my who will risk their life to save a woman or child, or a loved one. But how many will do it for one they do not know, love or care for? Maybe 1 in 100 (This is not including just the reflexive action of trying to defend someone), why, because it seems pointless: Prevent someone from getting killed, and giving their family losses, by hurting all of your loved ones.<P>I know that may seem like a selfish atitude, that I'd rather see someone elses loved ones hurt than mine. But honestly, the knowledge that I had jumped infront of a bullet meant for a black guy (African American male, if you prefere) wouldn't lessen the pain for my family and friends.. And family comes first<P>------------------
This war we fight is the hardest, most dangerous one ever. It has no bigging, no end, all are forced to fight it. Man, woman and child. No armor will protect you, no weapon will give you sway. It drives many mad, causeing them to do irrational things, even kill themself, because they know the only way to end this war is death. The enemy we must face in fighting this one, is one that we know much about, the most powerfull enemy ever, the one who knows all of our weaknesses.<P>It is, our mind.
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Postby Jenavia Darkstar on Fri Jun 29, 2001 5:31 am

Wow thats a little synical don't you think. I don't know about you but i feel i most help any one who asks me.Wheather I care for them or not.The knights of old helped complete strangers because they felt it was there duty to protect those who could defend themselves.I'm not saying go out of your way to find pepole who are intruble to help them.I'm just saying if someone needs your help and you just stand there theres soething wrong with you. I know if I died tomorow helping someone that I didn't know the pepole I care about would give me a heros wake and they would be proud not sad,or hurt.Maybe it's just the pepole I hang out with.A good deal of them are from the SCA and they are knights in defrent orders in the SCA.Maybe that makes my standerds a little unresonable for somepepole.
Oh well
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Postby Manhattan on Fri Jun 29, 2001 6:07 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zolgar:
<B><P>Here's one you cannot disbute wanting to join: A homosexual.<P>Many believe homosexuality is wrong, including most religious groups. (Again, hypothetical situation of KoJ becoming a known organization) What would happen if it became known that there were several homosexuals in this group?
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>what's more important, Zolgar, to defend someone's right to be who they are or to keep one group of people, no matter how powerful they are, from spitting on you?<P>as for homosexuals wanting to join, i'm afraid there wasn't any test i had to pass on the way in except to swear the Oath, sweetie. i think you're going to find them rattling around already. i'm quite proud of my bi-sexuality and while i'm not going to shove it or my paganism or any other part of my life in people's faces, i'm also not going to pretend it's not me when issues come up in conversation. i, for one, won't hang around any group that places a person's choices of partner above their actions outside of it when evaluating their worthiness.<P>and as for what would happen, Zolgar, in your hypothetical situation? Rev. Phelps might show up with fifteen or twenty tired and angry people and refuse to be friends with us and tell us all we're going to hell. we might get uninvited from the Salvation Army Christmas Dinner. someone might say to you, "hey, aren't all you guys gay?" you might even take your chances on some jerk trying to kick your teeth in in a dark alley.<P>the question is, who are you going to reject and who are you going to embrace? the person who's going to run out in traffic to keep you from getting hit by a car when you're knocked off your bike in an intersection (no matter who you are), or the one who's going to degrade and despise you because you don't happen to have the same beliefs as them? it's all a matter of who you want standing with you.<P>from the other side of the fence... i walked in here having read the posts and knowing that i'd be up to my ears in Christians. yet i took a look at the Oaths and at the posts and i decided that i'd trust the people instead of reading the label. Christians haven't been too nice to people like me, but i still won't stay anywhere they're not welcome, and i trust people like the ones who i see here to do the same for me. i could be stepping out on thin ice in an "order of knights" as a woman, a bi-sexual, and a pagan but if people here walk their talk, then i'll be welcome. and if they don't, then it was worth the chance anyway.<P>~mattie<P>ps ~ as an example of how much labels mean...<P>an acquaintance of mine, a soldier, lesbian, and pagan, stopped last winter to help out an elderly couple who had gone off the road in an ice storm because their windshield had iced over. she cleaned their windows, got the car out of the ditch, and gave them her spare ice scraper that she kept in case hers broke in just those conditions. as she was helping the old man back in the car, he patted her arm and said, <P>"thanks for your help. the world needs more good Christian men like you." she didn't correct him, she just said,<P>"you're absolutely right, sir. have a safe drive."<P>see my point?<P>[edit : and by the way, i'm not riled. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif">]<p>[This message has been edited by Manhattan (edited 06-29-2001).]
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Postby Treespeaker on Fri Jun 29, 2001 7:05 am

Well, my sincerist appy polly logies to Mannhattan and company--it appears I've spoken in an "inflammatory" manner. Intentionally, mind you--anyone getting on anyone else's religion is going to get my blood up, and that does tend to bring out the worst in me. Unfortunatly, it also makes me more incoherent, and my point seems to have been lost in translation. My problem is not with anyone's specific words on this page. (although "up to my ears in Christians" doesn't sound to complimentry; as a matter of the fact, it makes us sound like something unpleasent that just backed up your toilet ). But that's not my real complaint. It's more that we hear a lot about how "well, I've had bad experiances with Christians, but I'll put up with them" that gets me going. Is this a "well, my neighbor's Doberman chewed on me, but I'll be nice to all the other doggies" scenario here?" Unfair, surely. Just by saying "well, I'll trust the Christians on this board" you're being unfair, because it is very much a generalization; that we as Christians require a different evaluation then other religions to earn your trust and respect. That may be a tolerant attitude, but damned if it's a fair one. So before anyone starts chewing me out for facetious coments that exaggerate the public opinion of the BSA, I think they should take good hard look at what their words really imply, not just what they say out front.<p>[This message has been edited by Treespeaker (edited 06-29-2001).]
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Postby Manhattan on Fri Jun 29, 2001 7:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zolgar:
<B>But when you're dealing with a group like this one who follows what is "right" with nothing set.. You're asking for problems, people posing questions like mine, only in a manner that is meant to break the wills of many of you, not as a simple inquirey..
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>i see your point here, Zolgar. the thing is, i don't think that we have "nothing set" but i do think we're running on assumptions. you phased me with the homosexuality issue, and if this was your original point all along, i apologize but i'll leave my previous commentary stand. it's a good idea to keep in mind, the question of what's right. i think that many of us consider "right" to be a state, factual state of being when it's not. it's purely subjective, which i think is partly what you're trying to get at here. <P>i think that it is possible to get lulled into a comfortable state because what we think is "right" makes so much SENSE. however, looking at things from a difference perspective, chivalry can be a very patronizing and disempowering philosophy. "here, sit down and let the Knights do it for you, we'll take care of right and wrong and feed you and you'll be fine." Robin Hood didn't change anything, he didn't make the peasants free, he didn't restructure the tax system, and in the end he becomes part of the power structure, so why's he a hero? if you look closer at a lot of the "heros" out there, you'll find that there's actually not that much that's really earth-changing about them. <P>this is a good point that you make, what's the chivary of the KOJ going to entail? is it going to support the power structure and the "right" embraced by the status quo, or is it going to define "right" differently and risk getting marginalized? <P>good thoughts... i may have to refer to Paolo Freire on this. Starhawk is another person who is good to refer to in terms of assessing power-with vs. power-over, and power relationships in activism.<P>~mattie, pondering
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Postby Treespeaker on Fri Jun 29, 2001 7:16 am

Y'know, as long as I'm chewing on y'all, I guess I should ask Zolgar just what the hell "most of the nicest people I have met have been one of the 'evil' (as in what most consider them) religons (you know, Wiccans, Pagans and whatnot) while some of the biggest scumbags I have met claim to be Christians" is supposed to mean. Come out and say it if you think the only people who ever dish out the crap is us scumbag Christians, 'cause I sure as hell get real sick real quick of this "I'm just making harmless observations" bullshit. You hate my religion, I got no problem with it, but you'd damn better have the balls to say it to my face, "tolerance" be damned. Mind,I'm not saying as that I like getting a lot of "your religion is so cruel to us innocent little pagans" crap, but it sure as hell beats getting all this "Gee, I know a lot of bogus Christians. I wonder why?" half-stepping. I'll leave you to chew on that for a while, but just in case I haven't been clear enough, let me summarize real clear for you all: SAY WHAT YOU GODDAMM MEAN!
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Postby Jamie on Fri Jun 29, 2001 7:19 am

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Postby Treespeaker on Fri Jun 29, 2001 8:03 am

In regard to Manhattan's question on who defines chivalry, I'm afraid that at this point it comes down to you. However you worded it, you swore upon joining to "uphold the right," and only you and your honor will decide what "the right" is. If you feel that it would be wrong to do or not do something, then acting against those feelings for the sake of upholding more nebulous ideals of the Order would be a violation of that oath. If it feels right to do it, and you would be willing to stand up to the world and say "Yes, I have done this thing, because it is what I beleive to be right," then the Order could ask no more of you.
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Postby Manhattan on Fri Jun 29, 2001 8:30 am

i'm cool with that... it's just good to remember that "right" is an ephemeral concept for many people... not out of fickleness, but because information and perspective changes. truth is malleable because we can't know everything there is to know. <P>~mattie
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Postby Treespeaker on Fri Jun 29, 2001 8:31 am

That last said, let me just defend my various affiliations that really seem to get ripped up on these posts:<P>We'll start with religion. Ever notice how, even though we're the big, bad oppresors, Christians seem to hear a lot more about how unfair their religion is from pagans then pagans do from Christians? In all the posts I've read, I haven't seen anything coming from a Christian beyond "I like my religion, but you can like yours if you want to," and yet we get this "well, I don't like any of you because a few Christians were mean to me, but you can still post I guess" kind of crap coming from (to use as one example, not single out as Public Enemy #1 or anything) Manhattan. I'm not saying as that pagans are mean and unfair to the Chistians on this post, but I would say that all the reliios discussion we see around here tends to center around "pagan-good, other religions-opressive, but tolerable."
Having vented my generic complaints, let me just add in the specific that there are really very few branches of Christianity left that still support anti-homosexual views. I will admit that the few that do are large and influential, but that's no reason to say that "Many believe homosexuality is wrong, including most religious groups." (to quote Zolgar). <P>That said, I should just put a word in edgewise for the Boy Scouts, who also tend to take something of a bashing on this post...thanks to Zolgar for at least agknowladging that yes, we do do good, productive things for society in between the cruel and discriminatory mass gay-bashing sessions that take up so much of our time. And no, the Council hasn't "bent" and changed anything, nor does it look terribly likely that they wil. To be honest, I don't entirely bame them--look at how hard of a time the Army is having working with gay soldiers in the ranks. I don't think we should deny anyone opportunities based on such a stupid thing as sexual orientation, but I also agknowladge that a lot of people don't feel that way, and if you try to change things they'll start bitching. Apparntly the Council has decided that they'd rather have the liberals bashing them than the conservatives, but I don't think anyone in it really hates gays or thinks they're bad people who would corrupt our innocent young boys. I know for a fact that no one in my troop has ever started spewing obscene anti-gay propaganda--although admittidly that might just be because they know that if they said anything rude and offensive where I could hear it, they'd be digging holes and filling them back in with a teaspoon until they cried from it. After all, "a Scout is clean in thought, word, and deed." This is gettin a little rambling, so I'll just summarize briefly:<P>Christians, by and large, do not hate and persecute pagans or gays. What one Christian does, or even several, should not temper your opinions against the religion as a whole. The BSA does not allow gays in its ranks, but niether do they activly speak against homosexuality or worse, set up programs to try to "cure" the misled youts and turn them into good, heterosexual citizens. (Kind of a "sure, you can be part of our group if you completly reorient yourself and live our way" deal...I've seen other organizations do ths, and it's one of the crulest "kindnesses" I've ever seen). We will continue to serve as we have for over 90 years, and let the lawyers work things out for themselves. Any questions? You know my e-mail adress, or you can just post here...<P>------------------
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Postby Manhattan on Fri Jun 29, 2001 9:26 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Treespeaker:
<B>That last said, let me just defend my various affiliations that really seem to get ripped up on these posts:<P>We'll start with religion. Ever notice how, even though we're the big, bad oppresors, Christians seem to hear a lot more about how unfair their religion is from pagans then pagans do from Christians? In all the posts I've read, I haven't seen anything coming from a Christian beyond "I like my religion, but you can like yours if you want to," and yet we get this "well, I don't like any of you because a few Christians were mean to me, but you can still post I guess" kind of crap coming from (to use as one example, not single out as Public Enemy #1 or anything) Manhattan. I'm not saying as that pagans are mean and unfair to the Chistians on this post, but I would say that all the reliios discussion we see around here tends to center around "pagan-good, other religions-opressive, but tolerable."</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>i fail to see at what point i said i don't like any Christians... i have re-read my post carefully. the only time i brought the word into any of my posts, it was in relation to my personal experiences and not in any generalizations. i didn't pin the issue of negative attitudes towards homosexuality on Christians as a group. i'm well aware that Jim Phelps doesn't speak for all Christians. statements like this one <I>thanks to Zolgar for at least agknowladging that yes, we do do good, productive things for society in between the cruel and discriminatory mass gay-bashing sessions that take up so much of our time.</I> are inflammatory and unfair and not in the spirit of what anyone here has said.<P>it's easy for someone who's Christian to say that they haven't had any negative experiences with people from their own faith. i have received threats and hate mail specifically from Christians, people have refused to let their children play with my child or come to our house, i have had to hide my religion when i worked for the YM/YWCA, i have had people try and convert me persistently to "save my soul", so i think i have a fair raft of negative experiences to draw upon to give me pause when entering foreign territory. <P>i didn't say i didn't like people here, quite the opposite. in fact, i said that i trusted people here to act contrary to those negative experiences that i've had, to tell them my real name and to come among them openly and in good faith. i don't see how that's bashing or putting anyone down or denying anyone the right to speak and be themselves. <P>as for the BSA, as i'm not American and i haven't much interest in organizations of that type, i haven't followed the issue enough to comment. <P>~mattie<P>[edit : i can't believe that this post comes on the heels of one i made this morning about the unacceptability of people posting Christian-bashing "humour" on our theoretically tolerant boards... ~sighs~]<p>[This message has been edited by Manhattan (edited 06-29-2001).]
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Postby Zolgar on Sat Jun 30, 2001 2:01 am

Let's see to start with, I'll answer Treespeak ("Y'know, as long as I'm chewing on y'all, I guess I should ask Zolgar just what the hell "most of the nicest people I have met have been one of the 'evil' (as in what most consider them) religons (you know, Wiccans, Pagans and whatnot) while some of the biggest scumbags I have met claim to be Christians" is supposed to mean.")<P>Simple, I meant what I said, there are many 'christians' who are complete scumbags, because they take a "I'm better than you HEATHENS because -I- am a <I>Christian</I>" I hate that, I really really hate that.. Why? Because they are always trying to save me? No. Because they give us ALL a bad name. I am a Christian (Ok, Messianic Jew/Christian/I dunno what the hell I am.). Heh, being an asshole is being an asshole, wether in the name of God or not. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>Next we answer Jenavia ("I know if I died tomorow helping someone that I didn't know the pepole I care about would give me a heros wake and they would be proud not sad,or hurt.")<P>Bullshit. They would be poud of you yes. But, quite honestly, a man could go in to war, and single handedly save 20 PoW's, but get himsef killed on the way out. His family and friends would be proud of him, but they would be sad and hurt too. Knowing someone died fr a good cause doesn't make their death so it doesn't hurt. Hell, look at Macveigh's (sp?) parents, their son was a complete scumbag who deserved a much, MUCH, worse death than he got, and it still hurt them to know their son died. If your family and friends wouldn't be hurt if you died tomorrow, you have a bunch of jerks for family and friends.<P>To Jamie (so damn much I don't feel like replying to it all, s just "PS I would take on the Jubal question too, but I would be bias, so I will yield to anyone who wishes to discuss it.")<P>Take it on man! Don't whimp out on us now! (Seriously, I want to hear what you have to say on it <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/tongue.gif">) [BTW: Atleast one person saw it how I meant it.. Unlike Tree, who I don't even bother replying to much of his..]<P>Lastly, but not leastly, Manhattn:<P>Havn't offended me yet.. but, it's cvirtually impossable to offend me. (Jes' dun' go insultin' m' 'rents an' y'll be fine)<P>------------------
This war we fight is the hardest, most dangerous one ever. It has no bigging, no end, all are forced to fight it. Man, woman and child. No armor will protect you, no weapon will give you sway. It drives many mad, causeing them to do irrational things, even kill themself, because they know the only way to end this war is death. The enemy we must face in fighting this one, is one that we know much about, the most powerfull enemy ever, the one who knows all of our weaknesses.<P>It is, our mind.<p>[This message has been edited by Zolgar (edited 06-30-2001).]
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Postby Jamie on Sat Jun 30, 2001 3:18 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zolgar:
<B>
To Jamie (so damn much I don't feel like replying to it all, s just "PS I would take on the Jubal question too, but I would be bias, so I will yield to anyone who wishes to discuss it.")<P>Take it on man! Don't whimp out on us now! (Seriously, I want to hear what you have to say on it <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/tongue.gif">)
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now who's himping out? <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"><P>Okay, but understand that no matter how hard I try this will probably be biased. Here goes. Jubal
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Postby Zolgar on Sat Jun 30, 2001 3:59 am

Well, if we were to start getting in to all of the issues that cause all the hatred and whatnot, it would make such a long, overblown discussion, which none of us really have the time, patience or desire for..<P>Unless you want to go with the extreme, simple point that causes much fear and hatred:
Humans fear what they do not understand, humans seek to destroy what they fear.<P>But the true details of why someone fear something, that grows to be an odd discussion, I mean, I'm afraid of spiders, why? Because I am. I hate how they crawl, how they spin their web invisdably across walkways, how they lurk in dark corners.. Now, there's no reason for it, few spiders are toxic to humans, and none of those are really that bad, not to mention, I'm several hundred times as large as a spider and can squishh it under my foot easilly.. But I'm still affraid of the damned things.<P>It's the same with homophobes (except, homosexuals arn't small enough to squish under someones foot <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">), or any other fear/hatred for any race/class.. We fear/hate them for our own reasons You cannot try and say "Fear and hatred for *anything* stems from this." It just doesn't work.<P>Humans are all different, what works to explain somethinf for one, doesn't for another.<P>------------------
This war we fight is the hardest, most dangerous one ever. It has no bigging, no end, all are forced to fight it. Man, woman and child. No armor will protect you, no weapon will give you sway. It drives many mad, causeing them to do irrational things, even kill themself, because they know the only way to end this war is death. The enemy we must face in fighting this one, is one that we know much about, the most powerfull enemy ever, the one who knows all of our weaknesses.<P>It is, our mind.
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Postby Jamie on Sat Jun 30, 2001 4:30 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zolgar:
<B><P>Humans are all different, what works to explain somethinf for one, doesn't for another.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Humans are all different, but they are all wired basically the same, as are ALL animals. btw, you hit the nail on the head. Humans fear, hate, etc things because they don't understand them. That's universal. And yes everything <B>Does</B> stem from basic needs. Humans just make it more complex than it really is. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/biggrin.gif"><P>Take care,<P>(Sir) Jamie<P><P>------------------
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Postby Manhattan on Sat Jun 30, 2001 6:05 am

i'd like to apologize to Treespeaker and anyone else my posts might have offended. that was never my intent and i am sorry for any upset i've caused.<P>~mattie
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