Something found for EI perusal.

The noble Order of the Knights of Jubal traces its origins back to the Year Two Thousand A.D., when a group of distinguished persons of good and true character, founded the order to promote chivalry and honour. The order takes its name from our leader, Alexander Jubal McRae, who on two (so far) occasions has been seriously injured, in one case fatally, defending an innocent woman from attackers.

Moderators: Jamie, Greg

Postby Silver Adept on Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:00 pm

Although, I'll tell you right now, it's not had the religious references taken out of it. It's the Wiccan Rede of Chivalry. So if anyone becomes offended by the references to Witchcraft, I consider you now duly warned. <P>
Insofar as the Craft of the Wise is the most ancient and most honorable creed of humankind, it behooves all who are Witches to act in ways that give respect to the Old Gods, to their sisters and brothers of the Craft, and to themselves. Therefore, be it noted that: <P> Chivalry is a high code of honor which is of most ancient Pagan origin, and must be lived by all who follow the Old Ways.<P> It must be kenned that thoughts and intent put forth on this middle-Earth will wax strong in otherworlds beyond, and return...bringing into creation, on this world, that which had been sent forth. Thus one should exercise discipline, for "as ye do plant, so shall ye harvest." <P> "This above all...to thine own self be true..." <P> A Witch's word must have the validity of a signed and witness oath. Thus, give thy word sparingly, but adhere to it like iron. <P> Refrain from speaking ill of others, for not all truths of the matter may be known. <P> Pass not unverified words about another, for heresay is, in a large part, a thing of falsehoods. <P> Be thou honest with others, and have them known that honesty is likewise expected of them. <P> The fury of the moment plays folly with the truth; to keep one's head is a virtue. <P> Contemplate always the consequences of thine acts upon others. Strive not to harm. <P> Diverse covens may well have diverse news on love between members and with others. When a coven, clan or grove is visited or joined, one should discern quietly their practices, and abide thereby. <P> Dignity, a gracious manner, and a good humor are much to be admired. <P> As a Witch, thou hast power, and thy powers wax strongly as wisdom increases. Therefore exercise discretion in the use thereof. <P> Courage and honor endure forever. Their echoes remain when the mountains have crumbled to dust. <P> Pledge friendship and fealty to those who so warrant. Strengthen others of the Brethren and they shall strengthen thee. <P> Thou shall not reveal secrets of another Witch or another coven. Others have labored long and hard for them and cherish them as treasures.<P> Though there may be differences between those of the Old Ways, those who are once-born must see nothing,and must hear nothing. <P> Those who follow the mysteries should be above reproach in the eyes of the world. <P> The laws of the land should be obeyed whenever possible and within reason, for in the main they have been chosen with wisdom. <P> Have pride in thyself, and seek perfection in body and in mind. For the Lady has said, "How can thou honor another unless thou give honor to thyself first?" <P> Those who seek the mysteries should consider themselves as select of the Gods, for it is they who lead the race of humans to the highest of thrones and beyond the very stars. <P>From Magical Rites from the Crystal Well by Ed Fitch. <P>Anyway, ran into it in a nother club and thought that it was great. I would almost say it would be possible for one to be able to replace a few words, (Witch with Knight, and change meeting places, perhaps) and it would apply to us of the EI. <P>What are your thoughts, and would anyone like to transpose the words? <P>------------------
Sir Alexander, KI Eqvites Ivbalis, Snufficus Magus Argentus.
Initial suggestor of name Order of Jubal. Probi Immotiqve Este!
Was in #crfh at the start of the New Millenium!
*Begin CRFH!!! CodeBlock*
F- U+ IRC R+ H PSL+++>+ FW S? FR WB GN++>+ AI D&M+ BR RPG+ N P+++ W+++ I+ E++
*End CRFH!!! CodeBlock
Published in User Friendly! Go see at <A HREF="http://www.userfriendly.org" TARGET=_blank>http://www.userfriendly.org</A> and check out the interview with Stef!
User avatar
Silver Adept
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 3658
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: The Lake of Grass in Michigan

Postby Rei on Sun Feb 25, 2001 1:45 am

As a witch, I have also sworn to a variation of this. (no, not a Chelsea kind of witch *g*)<P>The important thing to remember (imho) is that they are not just words -- poetic words, yes, but they are something else as well.<P>They must be <I>lived</i> -- in everyday life, through our interactions with everybody we come in contact with.<P>Actions speak louder, longer and more truthfully than words -- and it is actions that we will show the true nature of our chivalry.<P>to me, anyway....<P>what do others think<P>mp+bb
Rei Asteria
Rei
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia

Postby Greg on Sun Feb 25, 2001 7:31 am

This is a good example of things we should see and promote.<P>I had contemplated, on the EI website, having a "What is Chivalry" section, discussing how various cultures and religions see it. This would be an excellent starting point.<P>I'm curious, Rei. When you say you've sword "a variation of this", how different was it? Is this Rede standard, or does it vary from region to region, coven to coven?<P>Regards,
Greg<P>
<P>------------------
-------------
Sir Gregory of Melbourne, KI
Knight of the <A HREF="http://www.iubalis.org" TARGET=_blank>Order of Jubal</A>
"What I tell you three times is true..." - The Bellman
Greg
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Reservoir, Victoria, Australia

Postby Rei on Mon Feb 26, 2001 12:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Greg:
<B>This is a good example of things we should see and promote.<P>I had contemplated, on the EI website, having a "What is Chivalry" section, discussing how various cultures and religions see it. This would be an excellent starting point.<P>I'm curious, Rei. When you say you've sword "a variation of this", how different was it? Is this Rede standard, or does it vary from region to region, coven to coven?<P>Regards,
Greg<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
hi Greg<P>it wasn't drastically different. On the whole, the intent was the same, if not the wording <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"> Like a giant game of Chinese Whispers, words change, sentences are refined or altered with each repetition.<P>If you like, I could post to you my version of this.<P>As for the website, a 'what is' section may be most useful. It is sad that the word has fallen so far into disuse that most people wouldn't understand what we mean by it!<P>mp+bb
Rei<P>
Rei
Keenspotter Supreme
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Perth, WA, Australia

Postby Silver Adept on Mon Feb 26, 2001 12:49 pm

It'll vary dependent upon what Order or coven that you're sworn to. <P>This one happened to be convienent. <P>As for a "What Is" section, I think taht would be wonderful. Starting with things like even the scholar's definition or the original definition of what it is and showing the evolution through cukltures would rock.<P>------------------
Sir Alexander, KI Eqvites Ivbalis, Snufficus Magus Argentus.
Initial suggestor of name Order of Jubal. Probi Immotiqve Este!
Was in #crfh at the start of the New Millenium!
*Begin CRFH!!! CodeBlock*
F- U+ IRC R+ H PSL+++>+ FW S? FR WB GN++>+ AI D&M+ BR RPG+ N P+++ W+++ I+ E++
*End CRFH!!! CodeBlock
Published in User Friendly! Go see at <A HREF="http://www.userfriendly.org" TARGET=_blank>http://www.userfriendly.org</A> and check out the interview with Stef!
User avatar
Silver Adept
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 3658
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: The Lake of Grass in Michigan

Postby TimberBram on Fri Mar 02, 2001 2:15 am

I've been pondering how best to respond to this ever since it was posted, mostly hoping that someone more eloquent than I would step in. I apologise in advance for any verbal clumsiness, hoping you will all forgive me.<P>I agree that it has a rhythm and flow that is poetic and expresses many thoughts with which I can whole-heartedly agree.<P>However, due to the way in which it is framed, I am utterly unable to swear such an oath, as it starts with an affirmation in direct violation to my faith. (You gave fair warning, Sir Alexander, so I'm not offended.)<P>I note that most of the points, especially those dealing with the interaction between people, <I>are</I> in accord with my faith.<P>To avoid any possible religious offence at any level to anyone of <I>any</I> faith, I would suggest that a similar oath be framed which makes no specific religious reference. <P>(If you want me to give it a try, let me know. I'm willing, but if no one is interested, there's not much point.)<P>Peace and PIQE,
Sir Timber Bram, KI Eqvites Ivbalis.<P>------------------
<A HREF="http://members.home.net/timberbram/lfc/index.html" TARGET=_blank>LFC</A> - a Christian comic strip/<A HREF="http://members.home.net/timberbram/erath/index.html" TARGET=_blank>Erath</A> - fantasy fiction/<A HREF="http://members.home.net/timberbram/csr/index.html" TARGET=_blank>CSR Universe</A> - science fiction
Sir Timber Bram, KI Eqvites Ivbalis
Knight of the <A HREF="http://ivbalis.org/" TARGET=_blank>Order of Jubal</A>
User avatar
TimberBram
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

Postby Ogredude on Fri Mar 02, 2001 8:56 am

I like it.<P>Blah. This started out as an "I like it" message and rapidly started turning into a rant about hypocrisy. I've deleted that stuff though. If anyone's interested in my opinions, start up a thread on the <a href="http://www.nightstar.net/obb">OBB</a>, otherwise I'll keep it to myself.<P>--Ogredude, CI Eqvites Ivbalis
User avatar
Ogredude
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: Boise ID US

Postby Silver Adept on Sat Mar 03, 2001 2:35 am

Two Things: <P>For Ogre: I started a thread in Zero Point Logic. Place your rant there. <P>For TimberBram: Hardly would I suggest that someone swear an oath unto which they were not comfortable. <P>If you could rewrite it without losing the essence of it, and make it non-offensive to anyone, that would be most wonderful. I heartily encourage it.<P>------------------
Sir Alexander, KI Eqvites Ivbalis, Snufficus Magus Argentus.
Initial suggestor of name Order of Jubal. Probi Immotiqve Este!
Was in #crfh at the start of the New Millenium!
*Begin CRFH!!! CodeBlock*
F- U+ IRC R+ H PSL+++>+ FW S? FR WB GN++>+ AI D&M+ BR RPG+ N P+++ W++++ I+ E++
*End CRFH!!! CodeBlock
Published in User Friendly! Go see at <A HREF="http://www.userfriendly.org" TARGET=_blank>http://www.userfriendly.org</A> and check out the interview with Stef!
User avatar
Silver Adept
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 3658
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: The Lake of Grass in Michigan

Postby TimberBram on Sat Mar 03, 2001 6:05 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silver Adept:
<B>If you could rewrite it without losing the essence of it, and make it non-offensive to anyone, that would be most wonderful. I heartily encourage it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Okay. Someone has expressed interest. Since this could take a while I'll see what I can come up with over the next few days. (At any rate, I post <I>something</I> by next Saturday.)<P>Peace and PIQE,
Sir Timber Bram, KI Eqvites Ivbalis.
User avatar
TimberBram
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

Postby Greg on Sun Mar 04, 2001 2:15 am

Hi there!<P>Certainly, no one is required to swear to anything that they don't want to, or for religious (or any other) reasons aren't in agreement with.<P>I'd like to make it 100% clear that the Order of Jubal is not a religious order and does not favour (or promote) any specific religion. It promotes respect and chivalry to and for all people. By definition, respecting each person's beliefs is an integral part of respecting that person.<P>Having said that:<P>The Order of Jubal is an Order dedicated to Chivalry.<P>It follows that each member has to have some concept of what "Chivalry" means. For most people, this is a fairly simple (but abstract) concept.<P>The purpose of having a "What is Chivalry" section on the EI website is not to create a 100% binding definition (I don't know if such a thing is possible), but to demonstrate different aspects, cultural and religious, of Chivalry and what it means.<P>The reader is then free to read them individually or collectively, to pick up commonalities or underlying threads in order to firm up their own beliefs.<P>And once people have formed up an opinion on what Chivalry and Honour means, I would encourage them to post it on this board, for (respectful) discussion and debate.<P>If people aren't offended by a Christian/Jewish text, from the book of Proverbs 3:13, "Blessed is the one who finds wisdom, and the one who obtains understanding. For her benefit is more profitable than silver, and her gain is better than gold."<P>-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-<P>By the way, for the record: I'm a Christian. I was raised as a Wesleyan Methodist and, if I had to choose a particular branch of Christianity, I guess that's what I'd nominate.<P>Reading through the Wiccan Rede, I wouldn't be comfortable swearing to it either. But I'm not offended by it - just as I am entitled to my beliefs, so is everyone else.<P>
PIQE,
Sir Gregory<P>------------------
-------------
Sir Gregory of Melbourne, KI
Knight of the <A HREF="http://www.iubalis.org" TARGET=_blank>Order of Jubal</A>
"What I tell you three times is true..." - The Bellman<p>[This message has been edited by Greg (edited 03-04-2001).]
Greg
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Reservoir, Victoria, Australia

Postby BandMan2K on Mon Mar 05, 2001 4:31 am

i figure i'll throw my 2 cents in for good measure.<P>Since I was a baptist Christian and have since tried numerous other religions as well as Unitarian among others. I personally think the idea of religion is bull concocted by domineering idiots centuries ago so they could get control over everybody by saying that their souls were destined to hell unless they do such and such for the church, namely support it with money and support the religious leaders in control even though some of them were corrupted peons. Now that i've, in effect, pissed everybody off with my idea of no real religion but that all are parts of the whole both pagan and christian and all in between. I will say something in reference to Sir Alex's Wiccan Rede. The idea of describing what Chivalry is is as important as the Bill of rights in the U.S. Constitution to describe in detail the rights of people so the government couldn't say this was ok for a right and then just take it away. This will set up what is and what isn't the idea of chivalry. I say lets go for it. Now you may tear me apart at any time.
Sometimes I just love instigating debates <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/biggrin.gif"><P>------------------
"May the Great Bird of the Galaxy bless your planet."
User avatar
BandMan2K
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 12:00 am
Location: GGG Orbital Base

Postby Silver Adept on Mon Mar 05, 2001 4:52 am

I don't mind Christian wisdom, either. My particular belief is that all beliefs have something very important to contribute to the world, and the only thing that I really would stress is the open-mindedness to see what another religion has to offer (no conversion, and mostly it would be noting the similarities between all of them.) <P>So if I'm sounding like a Unitarian, so be it.<P>------------------
Sir Alexander, KI Eqvites Ivbalis, Snufficus Magus Argentus.
Initial suggestor of name Order of Jubal. Probi Immotiqve Este!
Was in #crfh at the start of the New Millenium!
*Begin CRFH!!! CodeBlock*
F- U+ IRC R+ H PSL+++>+ FW S? FR WB GN++>+ AI D&M+ BR RPG+ N P+++ W++++ I+ E++
*End CRFH!!! CodeBlock
Published in User Friendly! Go see at <A HREF="http://www.userfriendly.org" TARGET=_blank>http://www.userfriendly.org</A> and check out the interview with Stef!
User avatar
Silver Adept
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 3658
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: The Lake of Grass in Michigan

Postby AlysonWonderland on Mon Mar 05, 2001 8:25 am

i could try to write a version of it, one geared toward Chivalry and not religion, although i don't know what to do with the beginning bit.<P>i myself personally sway toward "pagan," but i do not expect everyone else to be. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"> <P><P>------------------
~Alyson, C.I.
AlysonWonderland
Junior Keenspotter
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2000 12:00 am
Location: SoCal USA

Postby Kanaeda Kuonji on Tue Mar 06, 2001 7:28 am

Sounds right to me!!<P>------------------
"The mystery of love is greater than the mystery of death." --Oscar Wilde
Kanaeda Kuonji
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 843
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Buckhannon, West Virginia, United States

Postby Silver Adept on Wed Mar 07, 2001 1:09 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AlysonWonderland:
<B>i could try to write a version of it, one geared toward Chivalry and not religion...
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>GO FOR IT! Several opinions and devices would be most welcome. After all, one of my better talents is taking other people's work (snippets, sections, even sometimes the whole thing) and combining it into a spectacular finsihed product. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"><P>------------------
Sir Alexander, KI Eqvites Ivbalis, Snufficus Magus Argentus.
Initial suggestor of name Order of Jubal. Probi Immotiqve Este!
Was in #crfh at the start of the New Millenium!
*Begin CRFH!!! CodeBlock*
F- U+ IRC R+ H PSL+++>+ FW S? FR WB GN++>+ AI D&M+ BR RPG+ N P+++ W++++ I+ E++
*End CRFH!!! CodeBlock
Published in User Friendly! Go see at <A HREF="http://www.userfriendly.org" TARGET=_blank>http://www.userfriendly.org</A> and check out the interview with Stef!
User avatar
Silver Adept
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 3658
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: The Lake of Grass in Michigan

Postby TimberBram on Wed Mar 07, 2001 11:36 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silver Adept:
<B> GO FOR IT! Several opinions and devices would be most welcome. After all, one of my better talents is taking other people's work (snippets, sections, even sometimes the whole thing) and combining it into a spectacular finsihed product.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Better known as "editing".<P>Which is--believe me, I know--a <I>most</I> necessary and <I>important</I> task. <P>(In the interests of avoiding any potential misunderstanding, let me note that the preceding comment is entirely without smileys and is intended to be taken at face value. I'm an editor of various things myself, after all.)<P>Peace,
Sir Timber Bram, KI Eqvites Ivbalis.<P>------------------
<A HREF="http://members.home.net/timberbram/lfc/index.html" TARGET=_blank>LFC</A> - a Christian comic strip/<A HREF="http://members.home.net/timberbram/erath/index.html" TARGET=_blank>Erath</A> - fantasy fiction/<A HREF="http://members.home.net/timberbram/csr/index.html" TARGET=_blank>CSR Universe</A> - science fiction
Sir Timber Bram, KI Eqvites Ivbalis
Knight of the <A HREF="http://ivbalis.org/" TARGET=_blank>Order of Jubal</A>
User avatar
TimberBram
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

Postby TimberBram on Fri Mar 09, 2001 10:47 am

I promised I would post my thoughts on this by Saturday, so here I am. I apologise in advance if this doesn't turn out as well as I hoped. I've been unusually sick this week and am not certain I've recovered. <P>Nonetheless, here is an oath I can swear. I hope my own religious bias has not swung me so far from the original Pagan version that no one wants it.<P>As usual, comments are welcome. <P>Sir Alexander is welcome to start selecting any helpful snippets.<P>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
AN OATH FOR THE KNIGHTS OF JUBAL<P>WHEREAS for thousands of years the strong have preyed upon the weak.<P>WHEREAS at various times and places an ideal arises,
an ideal contravening this so-called natural order of things,
an ideal requiring
that the strong PROTECT those who are weak,
that those who have PROVIDE FOR those who have not,
and that those who can HELP AND AID those who cannot.<P>WHEREAS this high ideal of Chivalry has arisen
time and again
only to be hidden by the actions of humanity
time and again.<P>THEREFORE, we Knights of the Order of Jubal
do hereby declare and affirm and avere
that the High Ideals of Chivalry are once again
brought to the light of day and so swear to live by them.<P>Whatever the Knight does in this world, the one must be aware
that energy is expended, and energy is conserved within a system.
Therefore, what you do, you shall also expect to receive.<P>The Knight's word must be the word of truth and
counted more trustworthy than a legal contract.
Therefore, when you must give your word in bond, keep it.<P>Do not speak ill of others, for you may not know the whole truth.
Similarly, do not gossip, for unverified words are hearsay
and in large part a thing of falsehoods.
Be honest with others, and have them know that honesty
is likewise expected of them.<P>The anger of a moment leads to foolishness and may wreak
havoc on the truth; remember the motto and keep your cool.<P>Consider the consequences of your actions for others.
Strive to do no harm.<P>Gracious adherance to local norms of practice lead
to peaceful interaction rather than useless conflict.
Similarly, dignity and good humour are much to be admired.<P>Courage and honour endure,
even where mountains have crumbled to dust.<P>Pledge your friendship to those who warrant it
and support others in their need that
they may too support you in your need.<P>The laws of the land should be obeyed
wherever possible and within reason,
for they are generally chosen with wisdom.<P>Any Knight following this High Path of Chivalry
must be above reproach in the eyes of the world.<P>TO THESE ENDS:
to uphold the right, even at the cost of my life;
to mete out even handed justice, tempered with mercy;
to assist and defend others; and
to strive to act with honour at all times.<P>This I swear.<P>Probi Immotiqve Este: Be virtuous and cool. PIQE.<P>Let it be so.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<P>Peace,
Sir Timber Bram, KI Eqvites Ivbalis.<P>------------------
<A HREF="http://members.home.net/timberbram/lfc/index.html" TARGET=_blank>LFC</A> - a Christian comic strip/<A HREF="http://members.home.net/timberbram/erath/index.html" TARGET=_blank>Erath</A> - fantasy fiction/<A HREF="http://members.home.net/timberbram/csr/index.html" TARGET=_blank>CSR Universe</A> - science fiction
Sir Timber Bram, KI Eqvites Ivbalis
Knight of the <A HREF="http://ivbalis.org/" TARGET=_blank>Order of Jubal</A>
User avatar
TimberBram
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

Postby Silver Adept on Mon Mar 12, 2001 1:00 am

I have a few modifications. Comments will be inserted between lines. Modifications will occur within the bold text.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally expounded upon by TimberBram:
<B>It is known </B> that for thousands of years the strong have preyed upon the weak.<P>At various times and places an ideal arises,
an ideal contravening this so-called natural order of things, an ideal requiring
that the strong PROTECT those who are weak,
that those who have PROVIDE FOR those who have not, and that those who can HELP AND AID those who cannot.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's a powerful opener. Excepting for the Whereas bits, it'll probably stay untouched.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>It is known that</B> this high ideal of Chivalry has arisen time and again, only to be hidden by the actions of humanity time and again.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's a true statement. Again, relatively untouched.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Therefore, we Knights of the Order of Jubal
do hereby declare and affirm and <I>avere</I> <B>Hey, what does this word mean?</B>
that the High Ideals of Chivalry are once again brought to the light of day, and so swear to live by them.<P>Whatever the Knight does in this world, the one must be aware that energy is expended, and energy is conserved within a system.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Perhaps something a tad less confusing... I'm not quite sure what principles I'm missing.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Therefore, what you do, you shall also expect to receive.<P>The Knight's word must be the word of truth and counted more trustworthy than a legal contract.
Therefore, when you must give your word in bond, keep it.<P>Do not speak ill of others, for you may not know the whole truth.
Similarly, do not gossip, for unverified words are hearsay and in large part a thing of falsehoods.
Be honest with others, and have them know that honesty is likewise expected of them.<P>The anger of a moment leads to foolishness and may wreak havoc on the truth; remember the motto and keep your cool.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Heh-heh-heh. Subtle reminder there. Is likeable, however.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Consider the consequences of your actions for others.
Strive to do no harm.<P><B>Learn quickly what the local norms of practice are. Obeying them </B>will lead to peaceful interaction rather than useless conflict.
Similarly, dignity and good humour are much to be admired.<P>Courage and honour endure,
even <B>after</B> mountains have crumbled to dust.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Perhaps I'm a hopeless romantic, but I think those two ideals will last even after the sun explodes.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Pledge your friendship to those who warrant it and support others in their need that
they may too support you <B>when you are in need.</B><P>The laws of the land should be obeyed
wherever possible and within reason,
for they are generally chosen with wisdom.<P>Any Knight following this High Path of Chivalry must be above reproach in the eyes of the world. <B>Only then will the darkness be lifted.</B><P>TO THESE ENDS, <B>we, the Knights of Jubal, swear</B>:
to uphold the right, even at the cost of our lives;
to mete out even handed justice, tempered with mercy;
to assist and defend others; and
to strive to act with honour at all times.<P>Probi Immotiqve Este: Be virtuous and cool.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There. That's not too much editing. Sir TimberBram, you did a good job.
I thought that this oath might do better as a group oath as much as an individual one. The individual ones can add and change their Chivalrous ideas around, but the essence would remain the same. This one might be a good one for any new Knights to take as a group, with possible individual oaths on a more side note.<P>------------------
Sir Alexander, KI Eqvites Ivbalis, Snufficus Magus Argentus.
Initial suggestor of name Order of Jubal. Probi Immotiqve Este!
Was in #crfh at the start of the New Millenium!
*Begin CRFH!!! CodeBlock*
F- U+ IRC R+ H PSL+++>+ FW S? FR WB GN++>+ AI D&M+ BR RPG+ N P+++ W++++ I+ E++
*End CRFH!!! CodeBlock
Published in User Friendly! Go see at <A HREF="http://www.userfriendly.org" TARGET=_blank>http://www.userfriendly.org</A> and check out the interview with Stef!
User avatar
Silver Adept
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 3658
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: The Lake of Grass in Michigan

Postby TimberBram on Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:06 am

Some comments regarding the comments:<P><B>With respect to "WHEREAS":</B>
I was going for something with a vaguely "legalese" feel or tone. I think I like "It is known that" better anyway.<P><B>WRT "AVERE":</B>
The problem is a misspelling. I meant "aver", which is a formal term meaning "assert", "affirm". The purpose to using it to provide a triad or terms. <P>We can use something else. How about "do hereby declare and assert and confirm that" instead? There is a semantic crescendo here: declare a proposition, assert its truthfulness, and confirm adherance. Anyone with something better?<P><B>WRT "Conservation of energy":</B>
Just my science background imposing some terminology. Since energy can neither be created nor destroyed, philosophically-speaking if we expend energy in doing good, that energy must have an effect. ::shrugs:: If I couldn't frame the concept clearly, I apologise. I hope someone can do better.<P>Now I'm <I>really</I> glad "quantum entanglement" didn't come up, though it easily could have.<P><B>WRT "keep your cool":</B>
Oh good. Someone chuckled.<P><B>WRT "crumbled to dust":</B>
I agree with your comment. For more emphasis, how about:
"Courage and honour endure, even after stars are exhausted and the earth is no more."<P><B>WRT the whens and hows of using the oath:</B>
I'll suggest, merely for discussion, that there be a standard oath for the swearing in. If the knight then wants to swear an additional oath, that's okay. Perhaps we should, in fact, encourage swearing individual knightly oaths, so that the new knight has something that's personally meaningful as well as the group oath.<P>Once we settle on a group oath, it should probably be relatively static. That should help keep confusion to a minimum.<P>I suggest that the Convocation of Knights revisit the phrasing of the group oath regularly (something in the range of every three-to-five years if usually okay), and see if some poetical Knight has some better phrasing.<P>Okay, I've rambled long enough. Good editiing job, Sir Alexander. I hope my comments are sensible.<P>Peace,
Sir Timber Bram, KI Eqvites Ivbalis.
User avatar
TimberBram
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

Postby Greg on Mon Mar 12, 2001 6:08 am

Hi there!<P>Firstly, Great job, fellow Knights! I applaud your efforts and the fruits they have borne.<P>Just my 2 cents worth:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TimberBram:
<B>WRT "AVERE":</B>
The problem is a misspelling. I meant "aver", which is a formal term meaning "assert", "affirm". The purpose to using it to provide a triad or terms. <P>We can use something else. How about "do hereby declare and assert and confirm that" instead? There is a semantic crescendo here: declare a proposition, assert its truthfulness, and confirm adherance. Anyone with something better?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I quite like "aver", actually. But I'm happy to go with whatever everyone else thinks.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
<B>WRT "keep your cool":</B>
Oh good. Someone chuckled.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/biggrin.gif">
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
<B>WRT "crumbled to dust":</B>
I agree with your comment. For more emphasis, how about:
"Courage and honour endure, even after stars are exhausted and the earth is no more."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree with the comment, however I prefer the original wording. Logically, I know that the stars will continue long after the mountains crumble in to dust, but it's a pretty powerful image to use, and conveys the point just as well. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
<B>WRT the whens and hows of using the oath:</B>
I'll suggest, merely for discussion, that there be a standard oath for the swearing in. If the knight then wants to swear an additional oath, that's okay. Perhaps we should, in fact, encourage swearing individual knightly oaths, so that the new knight has something that's personally meaningful as well as the group oath.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>One other issue needs addressing:<P>The oath above makes several mentions of Knights, as the Knights who are swearing it. However, remember that the oath is sworn upon becoming a CI, not a Knight. All members of the Order, Companions and Knights alike, need to be bound by this oath.<P>Regards,
Sir Greg
<P>------------------
-------------
Sir Gregory of Melbourne, KI
Knight of the <A HREF="http://www.iubalis.org" TARGET=_blank>Order of Jubal</A>
"What I tell you three times is true..." - The Bellman
Greg
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Reservoir, Victoria, Australia

Postby Greg on Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:04 am

My apologies, Sir Timber:<P>Whilst replying to your post, I hit the "Edit" button rather than "Reply", and inadvertently deleted your reply to Sir Silver.<P>Can't get the hang of the Moderator stuff. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/frown.gif"><P>Could you please impart your wisdom once more?<P>Sir Greg (feeling rather stupid at the moment.)<P><P>------------------
-------------
Sir Gregory of Melbourne, KI
Knight of the <A HREF="http://www.iubalis.org" TARGET=_blank>Order of Jubal</A>
"What I tell you three times is true..." - The Bellman
Greg
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 12:00 am
Location: Reservoir, Victoria, Australia

Postby TimberBram on Tue Mar 13, 2001 4:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silver Adept:
I think that a KCI or GCI oath would be unnecessary, too. Ceremonies could be designed for those promotions, but the idea would remain the same.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The prevailing opinion seems to be that a ceremony of some sort would be better. I can agree with this; in fact, I wish I'd thought of that instead.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silver Adept:
<B>WRT</B> "Aver", I like it. Keep it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It seems that people like "aver" now that it's spelled properly <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/biggrin.gif"> <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif">.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silver Adept:
<B>WRT</B> "Conservation" Hmm... the idea is good, but perhaps a better wording. Like "Remember that any action creates a reaction. Therefore, what you do, expect to recieve." Something like that... something that doesn't mangle the action-reaction that badly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I obviously went well past the subtle and into the obscure with my original try. Oh well. I like this version by Sir Alexander.<P>I'm corporating the suggestions and edits so far listed into back into my original. I can post the complete version again anytime for another round of comments. <P>Peace and PIQE,
Sir Timber Bram, KI Eqvites Ivbalis.
User avatar
TimberBram
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

Postby BandMan2K on Tue Mar 13, 2001 5:51 am

I think the idea of a oath when becoming a KI is good and this is a great oath. However i do believe that it would be wrong to make up another one for GCI or KCI. Right now, i say Keep it and lets go!<P>------------------
"May the Great Bird of the Galaxy bless your planet."
User avatar
BandMan2K
Grand Poobah Keenspotter
 
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 12:00 am
Location: GGG Orbital Base

Postby Silver Adept on Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally reworked by TimberBram:
<B> The Oath in this thread is a more formal and hopefully cooler version that reiterates the original CI Oath for the occasion of a Knight's investiture. At least, that's what I understood from Sir Alexander's original message. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Exactly my intent. The first oath is the static, CI oath. This one would be the longer KI oath. In either case, embellishments can be grafted on to it, as the individual wishes, but I think this would do better as a KI oath or EI creed than a revised CI oath.<P>I think that a KCI or GCI oath would be unnecessary, too. Ceremonies could be designed for those promotions, but the idea would remain the same. <P><B>WRT</B> "Aver", I like it. Keep it.<P><B>WRT</B> "Conservation" Hmm... the idea is good, but perhaps a better wording. Like "Remember that any action creates a reaction. Therefore, what you do, expect to recieve." Something like that... something that doesn't mangle the action-reaction that badly.<P>------------------
Sir Alexander, KI Eqvites Ivbalis, Snufficus Magus Argentus.
Initial suggestor of name Order of Jubal. Probi Immotiqve Este!
Was in #crfh at the start of the New Millenium!
*Begin CRFH!!! CodeBlock*
F- U+ IRC R+ H PSL+++>+ FW S? FR WB GN++>+ AI D&M+ BR RPG+ N P+++ W++++ I+ E++
*End CRFH!!! CodeBlock
Published in User Friendly! Go see at <A HREF="http://www.userfriendly.org" TARGET=_blank>http://www.userfriendly.org</A> and check out the interview with Stef!
User avatar
Silver Adept
Keenspot Juggernaut
 
Posts: 3658
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: The Lake of Grass in Michigan

Postby TimberBram on Tue Mar 13, 2001 12:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Greg:
<B>The oath above makes several mentions of Knights, as the Knights who are swearing it. However, remember that the oath is sworn upon becoming a CI, not a Knight. All members of the Order, Companions and Knights alike, need to be bound by this oath.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No argument. What we were intending is that the original Oath (short version) is what everyone swears to become a CI.<P>The Oath in this thread is a more formal and hopefully cooler version that reiterates the original CI Oath for the occasion of a Knight's investiture. At least, that's what I understood from Sir Alexander's original message. <I>Is</I> that what you intended, Sir Alex? <P>Does that make sense, and is the distinction both meaningful and acceptable to everyone? Speak up, because we're defining the traditions here.<P>(I'd suggest Oaths for KCI, GCI ranks too, but that's probably a little premature. Or possibly superfluous.)<P>Peace,
Sir Timber Bram, KI Eqvites Ivbalis.
User avatar
TimberBram
Keenspot Despot
 
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2000 11:00 pm
Location: Surrey, BC, Canada

 
Next

Return to Eqvites Ivbalis, Order of the Knights of Jubal

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron