Proof

The noble Order of the Knights of Jubal traces its origins back to the Year Two Thousand A.D., when a group of distinguished persons of good and true character, founded the order to promote chivalry and honour. The order takes its name from our leader, Alexander Jubal McRae, who on two (so far) occasions has been seriously injured, in one case fatally, defending an innocent woman from attackers.

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Postby Silver Adept on Wed May 16, 2001 12:42 am

We are continuing to try and find the happy medium. The Conclave of Knights that just passed brough that issue to the table, and we think we came up with something that was workable. <P>However, we do realize that the deeds are done for the good of others, not for the good of ourselves. And that makes it that much harder to document, because the people who are in the media and the news are more interested in other things...<P>So we're continuously trying to improve the proof model until we can catch the deed being done without being seen, and reward the person doing it for the deed.
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Postby Ravenswing on Wed May 16, 2001 8:17 am

Here is my suggestion:
I like the idea of the KIs meeting to discuss the elevation of Companions to Knighthood. I suggest that you do this by the one thing we can all see... the quality of posts here on the webboard. If someone stands out in your minds as posting well, with posts that continually express the ideals and values of the Knighthood, then you would nominate him/her for elevation. The candidate would be contacted, and asked a simple question. "Have you upheld your oaths to the Order, and lived within the standards of the vows to the best of your ability?"
Because this is an order that values integrity and honesty, we should expect it from our members. To demand proof of deeds makes it seem that we expect people to lie in order to be elevated.
For those of us in the ranks of Companion, we should take elevation as a serious honor, and not accept it until we, ourselves, can truthfully answer "Yes" with quiet pride and dignity.<P>Ravenswing<P>------------------
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Postby Silver Adept on Wed May 16, 2001 9:22 am

Message boards aren't enough, really. <P>Someone could be eternally polite upon the message boards and a real stinker elsewhere. But by providing outside proof on some means, it solidifes their character and makes them more likely to be a true chivalrous knight/companion.
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Postby Ravenswing on Wed May 16, 2001 11:31 am

I guess I see what you mean, although I was thinking more of quality of content, rather than politeness. Nasty people donate blood to the Red Cross all the time, too.
I guess my feeling is that most good deeds *do* go unnoticed, and most chivalric folk are quiet about it. And I would question someone who was all about "See what I did" and not about doing good for good's sake...<P>maybe a happy medium?<P>Ravenwing<P>------------------
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Postby Lothar Sauvage on Sat May 19, 2001 10:24 am

There must be heirchy in this organization, but this concept extends well beyond the comic strip and will continue to grow. CIs will become full blown knights by deed as more people hear of EJ and take the oath.<P>What concerns me is the tendency (human and perfectly understandable) to do the right thing for the wrong reason. To strive for the knighthood carrot and in so doing, aid your fellowman is commendable, but it is ultimately selfish. We must try to find those that would earn knighthood by the deeds they do without the thought of reward. <P>If one can prove beyond any doubt that he is worthy, how do we know this one is truly worthy, not a liar or a braggart? We don't.<P>This can be illustrated by a 13th century work "Libre del Orde de Cauayleria", "The Book of the Order of Chivalry" by Raymon Lull. Pardon the olde english...<P>Knigts ougt to take coursers to juste & to go to tornoyes / to holde open table / to hu(n)te at hertes / at bores & other wyld bestes / For in doynge these thynges the knygtes exercyse them to armes / for to mayntene thordre of knigthode Thene to mesprise & to leue (th)e custom of (th)t which (th)e knygt is most apparailled to vse his office is but despising of thordre / & thus as al these thynges afore said appertyne to a knygt as touching his body / in lyke wise justice / wysedom / charite (/) loyalte / verite / humylite / strength / hope swiftness & al other vertues se(m)blable appertyne to a knygt as touchyng his soule / & therfor the knygt that vseth the thynges (th)t apperteyne to thordre of chyualry as touchyng his body / & hath none of these vertues that apperteyne to chyualry touchyng his soule is not the frende of thordre of knygthode.
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Postby Greg on Wed May 23, 2001 4:01 am

Why bother, indeed? It's a very good question.<P>The short answer is, you're right, there's no real need to document and provide proof. Having a knighthood wouldn't have helped you change the lady's tire any faster. In fact, it won't make a single bit of practical difference to your ability to help others.<P>The office of Knight of the Order of Jubal servers two purposes. The first is membership in the Conclave of Knights, where issues of future direction and policy are discussed. In the Conclave, we go beyond what we as individuals can do to promote Chivalry, and dicuss what Eqvites Ivbalis can do has a whole, how we present ourselves to the world.<P>The second role, which stems from the first, is a Knight of Jubal has, by definition, been elevated by the Conclave due to his or her meritous deeds and conduct. These people are chosen in order that they may serve as an example, not only to the rest of the world but to the other members of the Order (Knight and Companion alike.)<P>So, as a Companion you certainly the same abilities and duties as any of the Knights. However, the Knights have the further duty to act as a guiding force within Eqvites Ivbalis.<P>Also note that, whilst you don't get a batphone, the wearing of cape and masks is left up to the judgement of the individual member. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>Regards,
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Postby Lothar Sauvage on Wed May 23, 2001 6:21 am

Sir Gregory of Melbourne, KI and other Knights of the Order of Jubal as well as CI's:<P>Again, I am proud to know you ladies and gentlemen. You said the exact things I needed to hear. My question was a litmus test for sincerety, and I needed to hear the words "it doesn't really matter" and "serve as an example". <P>In some environments, the question I asked would have been met with confusion and hostility since they really had no answer to it beyond growth and bragging rights. Many never think beyond the "what's in it for me" all the way to "what's in it for others". They get a good idea and get stuck in the limbo in between.<P>I apologize for the cloak and dagger bit, but I have taken an oath which will bind me to a course of action and I had to know where I stood. I probably should have asked before foreswearing myself, but I felt I could live up to the current form my oath is in no matter what the outcome of my question.<P>Pagan stuff warning!!!<P>The purpose of the degree system in Wicca and simular trads is simply to designate additional responsibility and accountability, NOT status and in this way is simular to the Companion, Knights, Etc. system we have. See below:<P>First degree You are responsible for your own spiritual needs, accountable to yourself.<P>Second degree You are responsible for yourself and tasks within a community accountable to yourself and the community.<P>Third degree You are responsible for yourself and the community, accountable to yourself, the community, and your Gods.<P>You see, as you grow, there's really nothing in it for you, but that's the point of all this isn't it? This is what separates the men from the boys as chivalric or religious orders go.<P>End pagan stuff.<P>Given the outcome, what form do you want proof in? My external SCSI card is kaput, so my scanner is down (anyoune have a SCSI-2 internal to external adapter for cheap?). <P>I can certainly scan them elsewhere (for a price), unless hardcopy would be better? The cost of a scan and choking your mailbox with the bandwidth is the same as postage as far as I am concerned, so it's your choice.<P>On a separate note:<P>Greg, I have registered #Eqvites_Ivbalis on Dalnet. Email me privately at mazonn@telocity.com for the password. This should work effectively as a stop gap measure until KnightChat comes on line.<P>Warmest Regards,<P>Lothar Sauvage, CI<P>
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Postby Lothar Sauvage on Wed May 23, 2001 6:42 am

Gentlemen and Ladies all,<P>I have been doing some deep thinking, and have a question regarding proof. Simply put, Why? What can I do as a knight for our order, or for the community at large that I cannot do just as easily as a companion?<P>If there is no advantage, no batphone, no support beyond what I have right now, of what bennefit is it to provide proof, other than to add a few (more) letters to the back of my name and rank the title Sir (which was my dad anyway)?<P>I have always retained documentation of chivalrous acts where possible in the hope that I would look back on them in bad times when I am thinking "why bother" and get back some of the drive I need to go above and beyond. I could send copies of this proof, but I don't like to crow about what a great guy I am or some such tripe. <P>These documents are for me to remember that for every old lady that locks her door and calls 911 when I stop to help her change a tire (it happened), there's more out there that need, want, and appreciate the help.<P>Incidentally, if you are curious, the situation with the lady calling 911 went something like this:<P>'Mornin ma'am, need some help?
I have called the police!
For a flat tire?
I have tear gas! (inside a locked car with the windows rolled up? Right...)
Okay... would you mind poping the trunk so I can change your tire while we wait for the police?
<dumb look>
(I begin to walk back to my minivan when I hear her trunk pop open)
(While changing the tire the police roar up, 3 cars. one officer approaches, hand on his weapon)
Good morning officer, may I help you?
Uhhh... we got a call about someone assaulting an older lady?
Oh, that call was about me. I approached this lady's car because she had a flat and she dialed 911.
Really? You did nothing to her?
Nope, she called before I even reached her window. By the way, she told me she has tear gas, and I think she's a bit high strung...
She was going to gas you?
No, not really. She never opened her window.
Wha...?
Don't worry, I backed off so she wouldn't hurt herself.
Wha...?
(I have now finished with her tire and have loaded the offending tire and tools in her trunk and stowed them neatly)
(The now snickering officer to the others) Hey fellas, you ain't gonna believe this...<P>I left before anything else happened, and while I did my chivalrous deed (in spite of her piss poor attitude), it still left me somewhat less than fulfilled. I look like a nice guy, I always smile, I was dressed for the office, so I had every stereotype and visual queue going for me (I drive a minivan for god's sake!). <P>Sure, I thought she might have had some bad experiences in the past, but the whole experience depressed me (I can laugh at it now). It took some "remedial reading" as I put it and a bit of talking about it with good friends over good food and drink to snap me out of it. That's the reason I document my "atta boys".<P>Regards,<P>Lothar Sauvage, CI
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Postby Jesster on Thu May 24, 2001 12:53 am

snip
It is reassuring to know others have similar viewpoints, and while we seem to have a disproportionate ammount of Pagans here (considering the comic? Not a surprise), I find it doubly reassuring that Christians are living up to their name, being followers of Christ rather than intollerance. Thank you for being a refreshing view of my perfect world.
snip
Thank you for the reassurances Lothar, I am proud to know one such as you. As a Chritian, I am saddened by those who choose to behave not as Christ. Though I am far from perfect I strive to follow Him.
I also thought that maybe it would be good to explain the "Brother of the Chi" thing. I belong to a service organization at the university I attend. There are only 2 requirements for membership 1)you must be a male student here (we do have a sister organization for the ladies.) 2)You must do at least 30 hours of service a quarter. The actual name is Alpha Chi. It stands for the Greek words for "Men for Christ."
Well, i would love to go on about things all day, but I have calculus homework that is calling, and needs to be done before tonights service opportunity.
Jesster, C.I., brother of the Chi<P>------------------
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Postby Silver Adept on Thu May 24, 2001 3:52 am

We're glad to have passed the exam. I think that it's wonderful that yo ufind us able and willing to be the chivalrous organization. <P>(And besides, I've changed a few flats myself, figuratively speaking...) <P>In any case, I think that we all have much to learn from others, and that the farther up the heirarchy we go, the more responsibilities we get. <P>So it's not the destination, but the journey that counts.
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Postby Greg on Thu May 24, 2001 4:44 am

Actually, it hasn't taken very long for such test to take place.<P>At the time the order was set up, a large number of e-mail flew back and forth regarding the nature of Knighthood, and the structure of the order. <P>However, no one in the Order is ofended by Lothar's test, nor should they be. The Order of Jubal is founded on a collective ideal of Chivalry. Before any member joins, they have the right (and duty) to determine whether the beliefs of a society (and, let's be honest, the way it is managed) is compatible with their own beliefs.<P>Indeed, the fact that this test was passed, without us knowing if it was a test, gives me great satisfaction, to know that the Order of Jubal can stand tall in its beliefs, and be judged without fear.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lothar Sauvage:
<B>PS. Greg, I still want the Batphone. <G>
Hmmmm... Wait... Make an embedded VoIP appliance from a telephone, Lucent WinModem, and a small 486 running embeded Linux and combine it with the KnightChat client... A bit of red spraypaint for the phone, and we're in business! (it would work, but I am just kidding folks.)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, a VoIP add-on to Knight Chat would be pretty cool. But let's wait until the base system is finished first. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"> On the other hand, I do have to design and implement a VoIP system here at work next year...<P>Regards,
Sir Greg<P><P>------------------
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Postby Lothar Sauvage on Thu May 24, 2001 9:42 am

Again, good people, I am deeply sorry for the way I did what I needed to, but I had to be sure of a few things before I could consider extending my vows to include our community. The best (only?) way to do that is to ask questions and listen to the answers. <P>After that, I felt you people needed to know *precisely* why I feel you are the right people doing the right things for the right reasons at the right time. <P>Thank you for being who you are and making this forum. Up until recently, I felt I was a dying breed, and while my cov-(ahem) religion mandates a simular code of conduct, few if any besides myself and family extend it to those outside my cov-(ahem) community. <P>This is unfortunate since without an example, we can never expect others to live up to our code of conduct, thereby the stereotype of the brutish outsider perpetuates. <P>It is reassuring to know others have similar viewpoints, and while we seem to have a disproportionate ammount of Pagans here (considering the comic? Not a surprise), I find it doubly reassuring that Christians are living up to their name, being followers of Christ rather than intollerance. Thank you for being a refreshing view of my perfect world. <G><P>Regards,<P>Lothar Sauvage, CI<P>PS. Greg, I still want the Batphone. <G>
Hmmmm... Wait... Make an embedded VoIP appliance from a telephone, Lucent WinModem, and a small 486 running embeded Linux and combine it with the KnightChat client... A bit of red spraypaint for the phone, and we're in business! (it would work, but I am just kidding folks.)
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Postby TKarrde98 on Thu May 24, 2001 11:20 am

It seems to me that it took a long time for this test to take place, though I am pleased with the results.<P>I am a newbie in the realm of the knights, but I am not so new to the ideals of chivalry. My mother trained me long ago to live as a gentlement, respecting not only women, but all people I meet (though my friends and I *do* insist that none of the women in our group should ever touch a doorknob in our presence).<P>As stated in my oath, I am a Brother of the Order of the Arrow, which is the Boy Scouts of America's Honor Society. Admittance is for lifetime membership, and is dependent upon (1) a weekend of exemplary service to the Lodge/Order/Council/etc., and (2) an oath of a lifetime of cheerful service. This same charge appears in the Pledge of the Eagle Scout. More important than that, it is the only appropriate response to the offer of salvation granted to me by my Master and Savior, Lord Iesu Christus.<P>It pleases me that such lofty ideals finally have at least one home in today's degenerate world. However, I also recognize that it is not the order or the title that matter, but the acts of service themselves. My pride in being a Christian, in being an Eagle Scout and an OA Brother do not come from the labels as much as knowing that my life is an example of what those labels mean.<P>I too believe that proof should be unneccesary at this time; those who swore to uphold what is righteous to join would have to break that oath to misrepresent their deeds. I hope they would not desire to do so. I know I would not.<P>Therefore, Ladies and Gentlemen, I commend you for your site and commend to you the honor system-- let people boast who will of their deeds, and trust them to be right, just, merciful and helpful in submission.<P>I, in the meantime, will continue to love the life of Cheerful Service I pleged to my Lord, before the leaders of my OA Lodge, before my family and friends at my Eagle Scout Court of Honor, on this site, and before everyone I meet in my deeds.<P>God's Blessings go with you all.<P>Grant E. Montoya, CI, B.A.Hi., Eagle, B-OA, Adopted son of YHWH the Lord Most High.<P>------------------
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Postby Lothar Sauvage on Fri May 25, 2001 2:18 am

Coven COVEN coven Pagan coven witch coven coven. Ahhhh... That little repressed side of me feels Oh so much better!<P>On a more serious note, I am coordinating with a large ISP and some of the non-profits in the area to get broadband connection and web hosting at discounted rates for them.<P>I was hoping to do so nationally, but the ISP that I was dealing with originally was bought out, and their new masters want nothing to do with that. <P>This may be an opportunity for some of us located in different places to step up to the plate since we are all computer saavy (you are here, no?)<P>Get with me via email if you want details on how to set this up. It's easier than you think, does great service for the Non Profit, and can put some money in your pocket for your time that can be used to do more good work. <P>Note: Bear in mind that non profit organizations are not necessarily poor, and you don't need to do things for free to help one out. A fair price to cover time and actual cost of materials will give them the all capabilities they need at a VERY low price.<P>Regards,<P>Lothar Sauvage
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Postby BandMan2K on Fri May 25, 2001 7:48 am

One of the things I've noticed in this thread is how is seems we are doing something that hasn't fully happened in centuries, if not millennia: Followers of Christ, or Allah, or Yahweh working together with "pagans" without animosity, without prejudice, and without hatred. <P>Ever since I stopped going to my old Baptist Church and started to believe that all religions deal with "The Higher One" (but with different interpretations,) i was afraid that I would be ridiculed by people, especially by other Christians or Followers of God. <P>Now with the "Papal Apology" to all for what Catholics have done for the past 2000 years, and what's going on in this Order, where Religion is of no consequence or concern. (considering the fact that all previous orders depended on swearing alliegiance to God before anything else)<P>This order is above and beyond in the fact that we all work together to better ourselves and Humanity in general through our actions and our beliefs in how people should act to others, whether in different areas of the world, different languages, or skin color, or religion or anything else for that matter.<P>Ok. i'm done with my praising. I need to deflate myself right now <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>Thanks for showing that we are above those who use their religion or something else to seperate themselves from Humanity then use it to wage war against anyone and everyone.
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Postby Silver Adept on Fri May 25, 2001 9:06 am

Hmm... you have a valid point, BandMan. <P>(And not because I've discussed this with you before in person.) <P>Cooperation between members of differing religious groups occurs everyday in regular life, at work, but in charitable organizations, I note a lack of communication or cooperation between them. <P>Maybe once in a while, (and I'm using these organizations as examples, not because of any particular vendetta or spite) the Knights of Columbus will team up with... say, the Lions Clubs for something that might have been too big for either of them to handle alone. <P>The founding principle behind an organization that I was going to try and create myself (before I found the KOJ) was an organization that brought members from all the organizaitons (Lions, Kiwanis, Rotary, KoC, Squires, Boy+Girl Scouts, etc...) together in one organizaiton, and it's chief role would be to communicate needs between the organization and convince other groups to assist each other wiht personnel and ideas for greater service. It would be a major undertaking to do so... <P>...however, I can see rapidly that the Knights of Jubal can fit such a purpose, and is already, by bringing together all types of people, Christian, Pagan, Agnostic and (if we don't have some already, we'll probably get soem) Atheists too. Of different nationalities, ages, and abilities. And all are basically equal... the title Sir only menas that one is charged with the responsibility of steering the group as well as oneself. <P>(Wow, I'm longwinded...) <P>So, I think that by passing the examination, we can begin to walk on our feet. And that we can continue in the spirit of cooperation between all peoples with the common goal of Chivalry. <P>Oh, one more thing... Lothar, it's most acceptable to say the word coven in this organization. As you can see by the diverse membership, I doubt anyone would take too much offense to it. Considering that nobody has left because certain people are Pagans, I don't think that it matters all that much.
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Postby Lohen on Sun May 27, 2001 2:22 am

Just as a little addendum to Silver Adept's last post, we do have an atheist among our ranks. However, I am not a nihilist, nor would I discard conclusive evidence of something of the religious or supernatural vein if it were to come to my attention. <P>Let's say I'm living in a state of scientific doubt, & abiding by an existentialist humanist philosophy. In brief, existentialism is about taking responsibility for your own ideas, action and inaction, while humanism is about caring about for other people. Both, I like to think, are fairly compatible with most religious philosophies.
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Postby Lothar Sauvage on Sun May 27, 2001 6:01 am

The beauty of our order is simply this. Your belief in Deity matters not, what does is simply to do right by our fellow man. <P>This is a concept that transcends religion and delves into something I call universal truth. All major religions have a concept of reciprocity and connectiveness to the whole. Christians have the "Golden Rule", Pagans have the "wiccan rede" or some derivation, etc, etc. <P>Bottom line is that no matter what religion you are or aren't, chivalry makes is compatible, and we are hard wired to know what is good and right at the basic level. Once we ignore this for personal gain or other reasons, we do wrong by others and we find out about the other side of the same coin.<P>Tied closely to this is the concept of kharma, "you reap what you sow", "that which you do, you will receive thrice over", etc, etc. Yet another example of this universal truth. Do wrong, and the universe makes your life interesting. Do right, and life gets smoother.<P>'Course, doing good for others is it's own reward. You can't beat the feeling. I just replaced the brakes on a vehicle for a family that couldn't afford to have it done. Today I will be changing the oil in my car and those I know who don't have the money or time during the week when the shops are open. I hate mechanical stuff, but I'm good at it and some folks need it done, especially the brakes! I could do no less.<P>Regards,<P>Lothar Sauvage, CI
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Postby Silver Adept on Tue May 29, 2001 9:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lohen:
<B>Just as a little addendum to Silver Adept's last post, we do have an atheist among our ranks. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hopefully, I didn't offend you when I made that comment. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally thought by Lothar Sauvage:
<B>The beauty of our order is simply this. Your belief in Deity matters not, what does is simply to do right by our fellow man. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Exactly my point. That's what I was striving for. That when we remove all the layers of religion, race, and all the other barriers that we put up to be different, we are all the same and we are united in our quest to help others. <P>Also, glad to let out the side that was hiding in the "broom closet", too, Lothar.
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Postby Rei on Wed May 30, 2001 12:22 am

*snip*
Exactly my point. That's what I was striving for. That when we remove all the layers of religion, race, and all the other barriers that we put up to be different, we are all the same and we are united in our quest to help others. *snip*<P>would it be inappropriate for a Pagan to say 'amen' at this juncture??<P>It would be silly and unbecoming for something as personal as the gods I believe in, the colour of my skin or my gender to affect my ability to behave in a manner which resonates with the aims of the Order. Whilst I (and others) may from time to time find some parallel between a spirital lesson and a chivalrous story, they are not mutually dependant.<P>am i making sense here?<P>oh, and I too am glad that the test was passed without our even knowing about it.<P>mp+bb
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Postby Atlas_v1.1 on Wed May 30, 2001 3:52 am

Greetings all.<P>If you look plainly at it, 'amen' is generally applicable. It's a word in Aramaeic (if my memory serves me right) that simply means, "so be it".<P>As a new member of these honourable ranks, let me also express my joy at this venture. Honour and chivalry have far too long been beggars in our world.
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Postby TimberBram on Wed May 30, 2001 9:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atlas_v1.1:
<B>If you look plainly at it, 'amen' is generally applicable. It's a word in Aramaeic (if my memory serves me right) that simply means, "so be it".</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, Greek actually, but otherwise correct. <P>Literal meaning "Truth". By implication, "let it be so" or, as Atlas_v1.1 noted, "so be it".<P>Peace and PIQE,
Sir Timber Bram, KI Eqvites Ivbalis
(who has too many linguistics references in his possession and therefore ends up correcting such minutiae).
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Postby Silver Adept on Sat Jun 02, 2001 5:14 am

You know, that's disappointing that the news media wouldn't take your good deed, and that they called it "controversial" to boot. Well, I suppose, when sitting in the underdog's position, you're going to get stepped on a few times. <P>However, you have hit a salient point, perhaps something that will evolve into a spin-off thread (if it's not relevant here...): <P>The news media doesn't care about good deeds. <P>As said, it doesn't sell. Apparently we're more interested in the means that we kill our fellow men and women. I'm getting very annoyed at all the coverage being given to the conflict in Israel. I'd rather hear about co-operation than conflict all the time. Granted, the conflict won't go away, but it would be better to hear good news interspered with the not good news. <P>Returning to the actual point, we're trying. that's really all that I can say. We're trying to find a medium somewhere where we can get good deeds recorded in favor of an ascension, while also taking into account character and the word of others. If we can get even close, we'll be happy, and then we'll start fine-tuning.
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Postby Josh the Aspie on Sat Jun 02, 2001 7:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Greg:
<B>Why bother, indeed? It's a very good question.<P>The short answer is, you're right, there's no real need to document and provide proof. <P><snip><P>The second role, which stems from the first, is a Knight of Jubal has, by definition, been elevated by the Conclave due to his or her meritous deeds and conduct. These people are chosen in order that they may serve as an example, not only to the rest of the world but to the other members of the Order (Knight and Companion alike.<P><snip><P>Regards,
Sir Gregory<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now there are two sides to the issue here. I've been mulling over my idea on this, and have finaly come to the conclusion that I should speak out. The requirment of proof of deeds for them to count to night hood for at least -some- deeds has been a requirment of almost every night-hood ever in existance. I suggest that the elevation of a night be left up to the council of the knighthood, but that they take into consideration both the deeds spoken of in message boards, ect, the character that a person seems to show, and what proof they have presented. For example: I've been helping with the people at bethpage for over 6 years now. There's going to be a news paper article on spirit matters that the information gathering is going to be done on june 14th for. However my birthday is june 10th, and it's a tradition in my family to go to my grandmother's house for my birthday, and go to the water park there the week of the party to celebrate both my birthday, and my younger brothers (his is in feb, so it's way to cold to go to the water park on his birthday). So I won't be in the article unless sue or one of the other grown up cordinators mentions me and the article writer decides that it's worth mentioning me since I'm the only person that's stayed on with the program after going to college.<P>So yes, I've done a great dead that others are getting proof for, and no, I probably won't be getting proof for it... unless I get a signature showing I'm on the bethpage volunteer roster and send that in with the artical... which I wouldn't do.<P>So in other words, yes... there will probably be a problem with proof, so all the deeds a person does shouldn't have to be proven... but one or two good deeds (besides giving blood, ect) should -generaly- be shown to have happened with some proof. Otherwise it degrades the credibility of the order.<P>-Josh the long winded Aspie C.I.
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Postby Lothar Sauvage on Sat Jun 02, 2001 10:34 am

This was exactly the point of the first part of my question. Proof of truly chivalrous acts is always going to be and issue since true chivalry dictates that we act with no thought of compensation from the recipient or the community; documentation will be an afterthought. <P>This documentation has usually been either be in the form of a thank you note, certificate of appreciation, or a news item, but these would be rare. In my own personal experience, The ratio of my accolades are running about 16 to 1 for major deeds, all being thank you notes and awards from the community. Whenever I have attempted to draw the community's attention to another's chivalrous act, I have been told by news folks that "good news doesn't sell". <P>One such situation was that my wife got an idea for a Pagan community coat drive for underpriveleged folks, not at the traditional Christmas (if you ain't got one by then, you are really hurting), but rather at Samhain (Haloween), before you need it around here, so the coats could be distributed right on time. <P>The idea was well received in the local pagan community, and my minivan was stuffed to the gills for the trip to a local distribution center, not once, but twice!. The coats hit their intended targets abou the time we had a cold snap that lasted till spring. It all went absolutely perfectly.<P>I felt she deserved a bit more than the cheers and the pats on the back from the Pagan community here in Nashville and the ecstatic thank yous from the charitable organizations, so I called the local media and was told that they had no interest in, as they put it, "contraversial good news".<P>Bottom line is, she did a great deed, yet does not have any documentation. This was no big deal for her, since the reason she did it had nothing to do with proof (heck, she'd probably have killed me if the press did show up), and everything to do with the real reason there is an order of the Knghts of Jubal.<P>The second part of the question, the part everyone calls a test (I guess it was...) was to discover what the motives of the leadership of the order was. If this were an Order where we could have had physical interaction and contact, we could have met and gotten to know each other, and that whole thing would have been unnecessary. <P>Bottom line is simply this: In order for our attitudes and motivations to spread, we must be an example, both as individuals and as an organization. If an organization or individual is doing the right things for the wrong reasons, it will taint the outcome and eventually lead to a conflict of interest where the good done will be questioned and crumble. I felt that I had to know *before I took an oath to an organization* where those that control it want it to go. <P>You gentlemen and ladies have no idea what a good feeling it is to find others of like mind. Every time I did something chivalrous, my ex-wife questioned me why I would do it. She could not fathom why a person would do anything that was not in their direct immediate personal best interests. Julie and I lasted just over a year. When I married Beth (has it really been ten years?), it was a great relief to find that she understood *exactly* why I would do such things. I am so glad to have her as my cohort and counterpart. <P>Likewise I have found an organization in the Order of the Knights of Jubal that believes as I do and will act as a support base for me, encouraging me by like example, in which I can be an example to others and build it to critical mass where it will spread. This is an oath I can gladly take.<P>Regards,<P>Lothar Sauvage, CI
aka. Lothar the Long Winded ;-)
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