Proof

The noble Order of the Knights of Jubal traces its origins back to the Year Two Thousand A.D., when a group of distinguished persons of good and true character, founded the order to promote chivalry and honour. The order takes its name from our leader, Alexander Jubal McRae, who on two (so far) occasions has been seriously injured, in one case fatally, defending an innocent woman from attackers.

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Postby Josh the Aspie on Sat Jun 02, 2001 11:30 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lothar Sauvage:
<B>This was exactly the point of the first part of my question. Proof of truly chivalrous acts is always going to be and issue since true chivalry dictates that we act with no thought of compensation from the recipient or the community; documentation will be an afterthought. <P>This documentation has usually been either be in the form of a thank you note, certificate of appreciation, or a news item, but these would be rare. In my own personal experience, The ratio of my accolades are running about 16 to 1 for major deeds, all being thank you notes and awards from the community. Whenever I have attempted to draw the community's attention to another's chivalrous act, I have been told by news folks that "good news doesn't sell". <P>One such situation was that my wife got an idea for a Pagan community coat drive for underpriveleged folks, not at the traditional Christmas (if you ain't got one by then, you are really hurting), but rather at Samhain (Haloween), before you need it around here, so the coats could be distributed right on time. <P>The idea was well received in the local pagan community, and my minivan was stuffed to the gills for the trip to a local distribution center, not once, but twice!. The coats hit their intended targets abou the time we had a cold snap that lasted till spring. It all went absolutely perfectly.<P>I felt she deserved a bit more than the cheers and the pats on the back from the Pagan community here in Nashville and the ecstatic thank yous from the charitable organizations, so I called the local media and was told that they had no interest in, as they put it, "contraversial good news".<P>Bottom line is, she did a great deed, yet does not have any documentation. This was no big deal for her, since the reason she did it had nothing to do with proof (heck, she'd probably have killed me if the press did show up), and everything to do with the real reason there is an order of the Knghts of Jubal.<P>The second part of the question, the part everyone calls a test (I guess it was...) was to discover what the motives of the leadership of the order was. If this were an Order where we could have had physical interaction and contact, we could have met and gotten to know each other, and that whole thing would have been unnecessary. <P>Bottom line is simply this: In order for our attitudes and motivations to spread, we must be an example, both as individuals and as an organization. If an organization or individual is doing the right things for the wrong reasons, it will taint the outcome and eventually lead to a conflict of interest where the good done will be questioned and crumble. I felt that I had to know *before I took an oath to an organization* where those that control it want it to go. <P>You gentlemen and ladies have no idea what a good feeling it is to find others of like mind. Every time I did something chivalrous, my ex-wife questioned me why I would do it. She could not fathom why a person would do anything that was not in their direct immediate personal best interests. Julie and I lasted just over a year. When I married Beth (has it really been ten years?), it was a great relief to find that she understood *exactly* why I would do such things. I am so glad to have her as my cohort and counterpart. <P>Likewise I have found an organization in the Order of the Knights of Jubal that believes as I do and will act as a support base for me, encouraging me by like example, in which I can be an example to others and build it to critical mass where it will spread. This is an oath I can gladly take.<P>Regards,<P>Lothar Sauvage, CI
aka. Lothar the Long Winded ;-)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, it will be rare that such proof comes. However my point is that while nighthood should be possible to obtain without lieing and doing things for the wrong reason, it should also be at least a little difficult to acomplish wiether you do it for real reasons or not, or the organization as a whole, and the measure of earning a nighthood is cheepened.<P>It is the degrees from universities where earning them, and the awards that go on them are most impresive. A Harvard law degree, for example, carries a great amount of prestige and due to the difficulty to get into the program, much less actualy complete it, and those that have a yale degree are often much prouder of themselves for having that degree than for having one from a community college that offers law.<P>My point isn't that we should be seeking prestige as an order, or that we should be seeking the nighthood to feel proud of ourselves... I'm saying that when we are judged to be worthy of nighthood it should mean something, both to ourselves, and to those around us... because it is difficult to actualy earn.<P>------------------
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Postby Jim Brockman on Mon Jun 04, 2001 1:53 am

So, It is fairly established that proof will be difficult to attain.
So I recommend this. If someone does something for the order, (as others have already done) then we have the proof for that person.
For the rest it is assumed that we are doing our bit on a day to day basis. Therefore, logic would say that over a period of time we would qualify whether we can show the proof or not.
What if a Time factor became a part of the decision to promote and individual.
The Time would be calulated from the day they joined the order.
We would probable want to insure that we only promote active members so any one who has not responded to e-mail or poast and who has not made any posts would temporarily be disqualified for promotion.
I would recommend a year or more if time was all that the Knights could see.<P>Please, feel free to tear this Idea to pieces. The miore damage it receives now the stronger it will be on a rebuild.<P><P>------------------
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Postby MarianLH on Mon Jun 04, 2001 4:20 am

In reading all the stuff about proof, I'm surprised no-one suggested considering involvement in service or educational organisations, volunteer work, etc--especially when we had posts from an Eagle Scout and a member of a service fraternity. Membership, and often hours or at least dates of service or volunteer work, can be documented. <P>For example, I'm a member of the State Green Party of Ohio, and worked for Nader's presidential campaign and the more recent local city council race. The GPO has documentation of my membership, which committees I work on, and what activities I do(canvassing, circulating petitions, media contacting, etc).<P>Not everyone might agree with what I was doing (for that matter, I have a problem with the Scouts' institutional homophobia), but I do it because I believe it's a good cause (and I'm sure the Eagle Scout fellow feels the same way). <P>This wouldn't apply to everyone, but if the conclave is looking for evidence of someone's conduct, there's one place they might find it. <P>What do you think?<P>
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Postby Josh the Aspie on Mon Jun 04, 2001 8:12 am

At the risk of being controvercial... *raises hand* Nader rocks. *voted nader*<P>------------------
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Postby Rei on Mon Jun 04, 2001 10:32 am

hmm, work in a service organisation may be good proof...for those who can find a service organisation which resonates with them...I for one do not belong to any formal service organisation, per say<P>however, i've done work with groups such as The Lions/Lionesses, Rotary, cadet groups, religious organisations, political movements and others. but because I am not a full member, there is no real record (ie: time spent) of my imput. <P>may i suggest having a whole range of 'factors,' which can be used as a loose yardstick on a case by case basis.<P>for example, for one person, there may be proof in terms of participation on this board and a history in a service organisation. But for person B, their yardstick may be time spent on the website and a long association with the Order.<P>because, to be perfectly honest, i don't think we're going to come up with a single matrix which will apply to every member of this diverse and interesting group.<P>just my two cents.<P>follow jim's suggestion to tear it apart so we can build it stronger <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"><P>Rei
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Postby TheVagabond on Tue Jun 05, 2001 2:11 am

Do I risk my knighthood in this order if I mention that the service organization I belong to is another knighthood?<P>I am a member of the Knights of Columbus, if any are familiar with that order.<P>------------------
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Postby Greg on Tue Jun 05, 2001 3:06 am

To quote from Terry Jones:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Prior to the Crusades, the Knights spent most of their time charging around the countryside beating the crap out of each other. During the Crusades, they still did that, only this time they wrote poetry about it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Postby Josh the Aspie on Tue Jun 05, 2001 5:17 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheVagabond:
<B>Do I risk my knighthood in this order if I mention that the service organization I belong to is another knighthood?<P>I am a member of the Knights of Columbus, if any are familiar with that order.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't see why it would, as long as the nighthood is also devoted to chivalry, which it is acording to my encyclopedia, as well as choc full of religious tolerance.<P>Now if it where an organization like "Knights of the Golden Circle" (later renamed "Order of American Knights, and then "Sons of Liberty"), which sought to protect and increase slavery in the US, or was another organization named after a nighthood that was racialy intolerant... then I think there would be a problem.<P>-Joshua Albert Tausz C.I. <--- I'm just voicing my own opinion.<P><P>------------------
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Postby Lothar Sauvage on Tue Jun 05, 2001 5:17 am

One can learn from all examples. Some people exist for the sole reason of being an example of what NOT to do. <P>Most historical Knighthoods that have a sordid record began as a good idea that was perverted by greed or other failing. Dilligence by the organization's leadership is needed to prevent this in its members, and the members must not tollerate corruption in its leadership.<P>May history view us as a sterling example of how to do things right. May we always hold true to the course that we have set by living up to the oath we have taken and our motto, PIQE. To do this we must learn from all, both good and bad examples.<P>Regards,<P>Lothar Sauvage, CI
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Postby Rei on Tue Jun 05, 2001 6:11 am

Greg quoted...
<I>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prior to the Crusades, the Knights spent most of their time charging around the countryside beating the crap out of each other. During the Crusades, they still did that, only this time they wrote poetry about it.
---------------------------------------------</i><P>ahh, I love those old orders. They were known as chivalrious orders, but their behaviour was sometimes LESS than stellar (at least by our modern standards)<P>I love reading about the Knights Templar and Hospitalliar, its really fascinating history<P>Rei, doing her duty and dragging the conversation OT *eg*
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Postby TheVagabond on Tue Jun 05, 2001 9:11 am

Yikes! I've never heard of these Knights of the Golden Circle or whatever they're calling themselves now. I know that such organizations exist, but to have one call itself a "knighthood"... That's just insulting.<P>------------------
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Postby TheVagabond on Tue Jun 05, 2001 10:26 am

The problem with historical orders of knighthood is that they contain people and usually end up getting involved in religious matters, politics, or both. Because people are inherently imperfect, things sometimes start out as a great idea... and then degrade into something completely different.<P>It's sad, but true.<P>------------------
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Postby Silver Adept on Tue Jun 05, 2001 11:52 am

Although it's kind of offensive if taken the wrong way... I don't intend it as a religious attack, just a historical example. <P>For those who call themselves Knights, one would really only have to look at some of the Crusader organizations (Perhaps the Templars, although I'd need more proof for that...) were knighthoods, but may have been very unchivalrous in behaviors.
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Postby Atlas_v1.1 on Wed Jun 06, 2001 12:55 am

Hmm. Maybe this is the right place to ask a question related to the Crusades:<P>In the 2nd Crusade, the secular part of the army decided to raid Damascus. This was contrary to a peace treaty which the Orders Militant (Templars, Hospitallers, et al.) had signed wih said city - and at the same time, there were other cities antagonistic to the crusaders.
The Orders Militant decided to follow their secular counterparts and attack Damascus without warning or cancellation of treaty.<P>This matter has lead to some dissent among a medieval group I am part of - one party feels that they did what they had to, since the secular kings commanding the crusader armies ordered them to act against Damascus. Another party feels that they should have stood down and refused to attack them, or at least warned them first and cancelled the treaty. What do people here think?
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Postby MarianLH on Wed Jun 06, 2001 1:53 am

First, y'all have to remember when discussing medieval orders of knighthood, that chivalry only applied to the nobility. Slaughtering heretics or commoners was entirely kosher. Edward the Black Prince, when he won the battle of Crecy against the French, threw a feast in which the captured French nobles were the guests of honour, and waited on them himself like a squire. Very chivalrous. But when the city leaders of Calais rebelled against English rule he had no problem putting them to death, nor did that in any way detract from his reputation (at the time, at least) as a paragon of chivalry.<P>As for the attack on Damascus...that's tougher than might seem obvious to the modern mind, because loyalty was a major obligation of the time too. What does the honourable warrior do when his chief is not worthy of his service? Break his word? Many a medieval Japanese tragedy is told about a samurai in this situation. <P>On the other hand, if you're asking what *we* would do...a few centuries ago they came up with the idea that leaders should be accountable, and the authority of a government derives justly from the will of the governed.<P>
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Postby Treespeaker on Fri Jun 08, 2001 7:23 am

It is interesting to note MarianLH's closing statement, that "integrity is the fount of honor." Personally, I find this to be an interesting perspective, interesting enough certainly to warrant me writing this in normal prose. How can we say that honor springs from integrity? Integrity is what other people know about us and how they trust us, but honor is what we know about ourselves, and how much we can trust ourselves. While a person can create a facade of integrity with no real difficulty, it would seem to me that, if he knew that his integrity was the result of deception, he would know himself to be a hollow liar with no honor to speak of. Conversely, one who is publicly decried as a questionable sort can in fact be an unbismirched and just person. Consider, if you will, MarianLH's earlier remark about not accepting Boy Scouts completely because of their institutional homophobia. Even though the media has given the BSA a beating, and many people have begun to speak or even demonstrate against them, do they, or we, as I should say, not continue to do good in the community? (A fact which I am happy to note Marian acknowledges.) Although our integrity is compromised by an outdated set of principles, we as a whole know ourselves to be an organization of honor and willing service. Similarly, examine the case any one of the pagans in our Order: have any of them been accused of being bad or immoral simply because they worship a minority religion? And, now that their integrity is damaged, does their honor lessen? Is their fount destroyed, rendered incapable of doing good because of other's opinion? Consider, please. <P>------------------
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Postby Aeenzawthi on Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:51 am

Ya know, never before outside of my own mind have I see such a convergance of intellect and struggle.<P>In a shorter form, I (like many others) am glad to have found others that I am like and that are like me. Regardless of labels, geographics or demographics. Humans Being.<P>I believe that the constant struggle of Self is by far even more far reaching then any perception based struggles. For example, Good vs. Evil. Right vs. Wrong. Why? Because each and every perception based struggle is defined by how we define our selves. If we believe something to be right, then our cause is to uphold it. And when we uphold our causes, we constantly have conflicts within ourselves, propigated by our own doubts or actions, or the doubts and actions of those around us. <P>That we've all, in our fashions and individual perceptions and selves, come to a point of recognizing a shared, or if you will Universal, virtue and have openly and willing accepted it (and by virtue of that, accepted all others who have as well), is simply a true and shining hope for all.<P>To follow this back into the thread of Proof and the subsequent inter-related thread of history: Indeed, those who "do" simply because it needs to be done are usually heralded in retrospect. Those who seek to "do" simply to shine thier own candle probably need to light it first. :-) Many can be driven (some say out of ego or gain) to do things to show them off, perhaps not realizing that it's a hollow act, perhaps because they may be hollow inside themselves and simply look for a way to fill or warm that void. Something along the lines of Good Deeds for all the wrong reasons. (not sure where this portion was going, thanks to sleep dep, but I'll let it stand.)<P>As for History: The Knights of the Crusades (as one example) I believe were being shining examples of what they swore themselves to be by thier actions. I believe (though I may be wrong) that the Knights Oath that they took was to uphold Truth, Justice, and the Word of God above all things. Ergo, if the Secular order decides to tell them "God said to smite Damascus flat", they'd jolly well go and smite Damascus flatter than a pancake, regardless of if God actually did or did not command so.<P>And here is where we come into Leadership, and the "Test" therein. As Plato has been noted to write, the Leader of a country must be as equal to the people of the Country, selected BY the people of the country for holding all the values that the country wishes to embody. And, as leaders naturally need enforcers, there have been those designated as Guardians (or Knights, if you will.). These were people, average or of nobility, chosen/selected/pre destined/what have you, where the State or Religion saw in them either the virtues they wished to embody, or the ability in the individual to conform or be shaped into those virtues. In any case, these individuals (often after much learning and training or initiation) would then delcare themselves to that purpose of upholding those Virtues as declaired by either God, King, Country or combination of the above.<P>Regardless of what King, Contry or God(s) may have then chossen to tell these individuals what actions to perform, they upheld those vows to perform those actions. And, in some cases, performed above those actions.<P>And then we get to the other part. What if, then, the actions ordered cause the Vows to come into conflict with themselves? What if, to uphold Justice, Mercy is to be set aside? What if, to Uphold Mercy, Justice is forgone?<P>Any of those can be deliberated, defended, justified, attacked or destroyed. But the outcome, the results, come only from the individual in question at the time. When faced with a quandry of such proportions as to cause a person to come into self conflict, we're nothing more than bystanders, tag alongs, spectators. We can, I believe, neither condone nor condem in any serious judgement. To reflect upon them, to discuss them, is one thing. For we all utilize examples as metaphors for seeking solutions to our own dilemmas of self understanding and self conviction.<P>Suffice it to say, we're all human, and we here are atleast (and at last) all human together, first and formost, and that we strive to all be human to eachother. And naturally, to PIQE. :-)<P>And I'm so glad to be here, I'm going to go bounce off the walls from all the energy is creating just thinking about it!
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Postby MarianLH on Mon Jun 11, 2001 1:59 am

"Integrity is the fount of honour" is the motto of my personal arms. Integrity to me means not only doing the right thing, but doing it for the right reasons. What the motto is supposed to mean is that real honour needs to be more than just a facade of respectibility. <P>Does that help?<P>
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Postby Lothar Sauvage on Mon Jun 11, 2001 10:04 am

Two examples where justice was served and how:<P>A fellow who was peripherally attached to the Pagan Coven I grew up in was guilty of murder. Due to technicalities, the case against him was dismissed despite solid evidence According to US constitutional law, under these circumstances the person cannot be retried for the same charge. Sucks in this case, but otherwise a good idea. <P>The coven, had limited recourses in this matter, always abiding within the law. We could do no harm to him legally or otherwise, but there are other ways to solve problems. We rented a U-Haul, loaded all his worldly belongings aboard and left it in the drive of his apartment building.<P>A fellow covener picked him up from the jail where he had been held and drove him straight to a circle (meeting) held to pass the coven's judgement of the situation. After we verbally banished him, we legally informed him of the restraining orders taken out against him by all present. One member of the coven was a uniformed officer of the law who observed the whole affair in a official capacity making sure no one got out of hand. <P>He wisely chose to leave and drove the truck off in the sunset, never to be seen by us again. After he left the circle, we magically banished him, and bound him to the threefold law (that which you do be returned to you thrice over), sealing it with a kiss so to speak. <P>When the truck was turned in where the truck was returned we informed the local law enforcement of the situation. They were quite appreciative for the heads up.<P>In the second situation, a person premeditatively and coldly murdered a guy who was a close friend to most of a local coven. The coven knew who did it, they knew where the little punk lived. The only thing they did on the surface was to let law enforcement do their jobs. The perpetrator got life with no parole, which made a lot of people breathe easier, mostly the women of the coven. <P>You see, a pagan male who has just had a good friend murdered really gets in touch with the warrior/destroyer portion of themselves. Rational thought and the rede (code of conduct: 'an it <B>harm none</B>, do as thou wilt) tend to be forgotten. This coven also has many military personel in their ranks, at least 5 were trained combat veterans with firearms and / or other weapons at their disposal. <P>The only thing worse than a pagan man here is a group of them. During the wake, but before the trial there was a drawing of straws, in case he got off. Thank god that didn't happen. For a few reasons.<P>The point is, justice is usually served, but not as swiftly as the victims would generally like. Swift justice is seldom just. Hence the reason for "justice tempered wirh mercy". Anyone who has tempered anything knows itis not a fast process. You can have it two ways: Fast and wrong or Slow and right.<P>Where there is a conflict between the vows or such, communicate with others. They may not have the conflict, or may see an option you have not. <P>Work within the law of the land where possible, and let the folks whose job it is to protect and serve the public trust earn their meager keep. <P>If you find the world disagrees with you about how justice must be served, get a reality check. Not from your friends who think just like you, but from an impartial person whom you let make up their own mind with the unbiased facts. If you find the impartial person disagrees with you after due consideration of the facts, walk away from it. This will be harder than anything you have ever done, but justice is not served otherwise, only vengance since it has become personal. <P>Finally if after all things are considered, and justice must be meted out by you, do so swiftly and decisively with mercy and not with vengance in your heart. Only then can you act in everyone's best interests. In these two extreme examples, think about just how wrong this all could have gone if the spirit of our oath and motto were not followed.<P>Regards,<P>Lothar Sauvage, CI
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Postby Silver Adept on Mon Jun 11, 2001 11:42 am

That makes things clearer. The meaning is thus this: <P>Without Integrity, Honor is not.<P>(Or was that just more confusing...?) <P>I like the point brought up about conflicting designs. <P>"Equal Justince Under Law" adorns the highest court building in the United States. But what happens if Justice is outside Law?
We've heard of vigilantes and people who get their revenge who don't use the justice system. <P>Should a principle conflict with another, it then becomes the decision of the Knight to either suspend one principle in favor of the other, or to attempt to find a medium in which both principles may be upheld, even though neither is satisfied fully. If the Law finds one Innocent, Justice may not be served, however, it is generaly accepted that one will obey Law and attempt to find Justice in a manner within Law. <P>Thus, "Equal Justice Under Law." <P>We, as Knights, in the Long Oath, agree to follow Law within reason, for generally Law provides for Justice. However, we do make the provision that in the case that Law is wrong (if it were to persecute the pagans or Boy Scouts...), it can be revoked while still staying within the Oath. Civil disobedience is encouraged by the Founders of the Nation and the great writers of the time, because it is the only way that a government will be able to evolve and to know what is permissible and what is not. <P>(Boy, lots of words for no purpose. Eventually, I'll learn to be more conscise... I think.)<P>
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Postby Gustav Snarp on Mon Aug 06, 2001 7:39 am

I'm new to this board and have not yet sworn to this order, but I felt I would make a few comments anyway.<P>The issue of proof is indeed difficult. As others have noted, the very bragging of a good deed seems to lessen the deed itself. Obviously in this brave new world of the internet an order of knights has all sorts of new things to consider. I personally feel that personal observation by a current knight is the truest proof. Media reports can be a second form, but I feel they should not be submitted by the person in question. This certainly means that it will be very difficult for a person to obtain knighthood, but as there seems to be agreement that knighthood is to serve as an example, and not as a personal agranisment, perhaps that is for the better. Eventually there will be more knights, and therefore more likelihood of personal observation. This may take years, but a small number of knights will strengthen the organization, rather than weaken it. It will be more likely that those chosen are worthy, and it will make the knighthood itself more "valuable" if it is only earned by few. <P>As to service in other organizations as a means of proof, I think this is a poor idea. Certainly it could be one factor in the minds of the voting knights, but I think there must be more proof of virtue than that. Again, I also feel that this information should not be submitted by the actual candidate. Perhaps this is a bit harsh, but I think submitting oneself for candidacy in that way makes it appear that the service was performed for the sake of a title or reward rather than for it's own sake. There is also of course the previously mentioned problem with the intentions of the organization in question. In the case of the Green Party, as it is overtly political, I think it should not be considered. I personally agree with many of it's motives (I voted Nader too), but to allow the order to even seem to be politicized is dangerous. Perhaps Scouting service should be disqualified for similar reasons, but the difference is that it is not a political organization. It may not allow homosexuals as members, but it is not attacking homosexuals either, it's service is to humanity rather than to political issues.<P>I have more to say, but lack of sleep has likely already made me long-winded and incoherent.
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