Proof

The noble Order of the Knights of Jubal traces its origins back to the Year Two Thousand A.D., when a group of distinguished persons of good and true character, founded the order to promote chivalry and honour. The order takes its name from our leader, Alexander Jubal McRae, who on two (so far) occasions has been seriously injured, in one case fatally, defending an innocent woman from attackers.

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Postby Greg on Tue Feb 06, 2001 4:31 am

Hi there!<P>In the Procedures for Knighthood, I mentioned that proof of the great deed or service is required.<P>This begs the question, "What sort of proof?".<P>To be honest, I don't know. So, I'd like to throw the question open to the whole forum.<P><P>------------------
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Postby TimberBram on Tue Feb 06, 2001 9:43 am

The first question that needs some form of answer is "What sort of deed or service qualifies?"<P>Then we can worry about proof.<P>In our current list of four Knights, each has been responsible for some service to either the Order itself or COTC (in my own case). With the public nature of the Internet, the whole issue of proof was largely unnecessary.<P>What other types of service or deed are appropriate? <P>Furthermore: service to what? To EI or COTC? Webcomics in general? If we have some guidelines as to what deeds or service are appropriate, that will provide some hints as to what proof might be possible.<P>Just tossing out my C$0.05 for consideration.<P>Peace,
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Postby Greg on Wed Feb 07, 2001 4:21 am

Service to the Order isn't really that big a deal.<P>The main aim of the Order of Jubal is Chivalry. And that extends to anyone and everyone.<P>Services to COTC is one thing but that's not only a service to the strip, but to all the readers of COTC, wether they are in the Order, read the fourms, or just drop in and read the strip occasionally.<P>So, I wouldn't necessarily see that a deed or service just to comics is worthy of a knighthood. Unless, we grant a KCRB (Knight Commander of the Order of Rocky and Bullwinkle) <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>So, what sort of deed qualifies?<P>Firstly, it has to involve a sacrifice of time or resources. <P>Secondly, it has to be a selfless act, and benefit others.<P>Thirdly, it has to serve as an example to others, both in the Order (as a leadership role) and the wider community (to show the world that this is what the Order of Jubal is all about.)<P>When I talk about being an example to others, I'd also like to highlight one of the statements from the "Procedures" posting.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Then, at least three existing Knights must agree that the person is worthy of the Knighthood <B>(by virtue of the deed and character).</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In addition to the deed, the person must be of good and true character, as befits a Knight of Eqvites Ivbalis.<P>One good deed in isolation isn't enough. A person must demonstrate good character, fairness and respect. Or, to quote from the EI website, "Justice, Mercy, Service and Honour"<P>In doing so, the provide leadership to the Order, and a role model of Chivalry to the world. And that is what should be evaluated when debating a Knighthood. The deed is important, but it's the values that underpin the deed and the person that matter the most.<P>Regards,
Sir Gregory<P>------------------
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Postby Silver Adept on Wed Feb 07, 2001 4:50 am

Well... <P>Great deeds... hmmm. <P>Service in the name of the order or to the order would be first on the list, COTC probably second, and Webcomics later. <P>At least I think that's the proper order.<P>------------------
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Postby Jamie on Wed Feb 07, 2001 5:24 am

I agree w/ everything Greg said above. I certainly have no interest in bestowing Knighthood upon anyone <B>only</B> for things they do for my comic. That said, I am eternally gratefully to Timber Bram for doing the COTC Mythos and he deseverd the Knighthood! I kick myself for not suggesting it first. However, EI is about Chivalry and it should reflect that ideal as a whole. <P>Take care,<P>Jamie<p>[This message has been edited by Jamie (edited 02-07-2001).]
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Postby Silver Adept on Fri Feb 09, 2001 12:54 pm

We agree with what Sir Greg has presented. <P>But that still begs the question... how do we verify the claims that will be made? <P>I happen to know that in our local paper, there is a Good Turns section that runs weekly in which knightly activities might be recorded. (if someone were so inclined to report them)<P>Hoever, I'm sure that not everyone has such a paper, or subscribes to it. <P>Can anyone think of a way of verifying claims that will be made?<P>------------------
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Postby Jamie on Sat Feb 10, 2001 8:14 am

Howdy,<P>Here's an idea. It may not be popular, but I'm just throwing it out here. Presently we have 5 knights, including Jubal there's 6. His vote is only counted in the event of a dissention. I propose that we, the present founding knights assemble together (by e-mail if nothing else) every so often to vote in a certain number of knights. I would say 3 each time. Also they would have to be among the roster of Companion of the Order of Jubal in order to qualify. This should pose little problem as if you wanted someone knighted, you ask him or her to join as a CI first. That way we will know if they even want to be a knight. Of course right now we seem to have plenty of CIs in the order. This would not be a contest. It is simply a way to recognize unselfish and chivalric acts carried out by our fellow man or lady. This way we can nominate someone based on the act, instead of searching for it. What do you think? <P>Thank you,<P>Jamie<P>------------------
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Postby BandMan2K on Tue Feb 13, 2001 3:38 am

I think that it's a good idea for the selection of a CI and make them a KI, however, since I'm stupid and didn't read this first, I asked Sir Greg the exact same question in another thread so at least my question is now somewhat answered. However, even though it would mean more to me in the world than anything if I was to become a KI, whatever deeds I have done can't be used to help me since I've done them all before I joined. Whatever I've done for my school such as Christmas Giving for 2 years, helped people out with homework while sacrificing my own homework in the process, giving money away to people who needed it, even when I only had 5 dollars to my name, I mean just last week I helped a woman from my college who got her car stuck in the snow and with mud and water flying everywhere I pushed her off the snowbank while other people were just driving by so they could get to their work or home. Every thing that I've done can't be used. Only Silver can be sure to endorse me if I ever came up since he was with me when I did most of those things. oh well, just venting. I'll try my hardest to help people out as much as I can and be willing to sacrifice my sanity, wallet and anything else to prove I'm worthy to be a member of the Order of the Knights of Jubal, but whatever good things I've done in the past was for naught.<P>------------------
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Postby Kanaeda Kuonji on Wed Feb 14, 2001 7:42 am

Even the smallest deed can make a difference.<P>------------------
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Postby Greg on Wed Feb 14, 2001 8:36 am

Hi there!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BandMan2K:
<B>whatever deeds I have done can't be used to help me since I've done them all before I joined.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Even if the deeds were done before you joined, they still demonstrate your character and chivalrous behaviour. There's no reason that the Conclave of Knights couldn't take them in to account, as long as they can be verified.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>
Only Silver can be sure to endorse me if I ever came up since he was with me when I did most of those things.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>As Sir Silver is a member of the Conclave, there is no reason that he can't speak on your behalf. The eyewitness testimony of a Knight of the Order certainly counts as proof.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> but whatever good things I've done in the past was for naught.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>As Sir Silver said, No chivalrous deed goes for naught. Is the woman you helped out of the snow any worse off because you're not a Knight? <P>Even within the Order, your actions still speak well of you and serve as an example to others, CIs and Knights alike. And, though the deeds might not immediately qualify you for nomination, they certainly will be considered as part of the process.<P>Have courage, BandMan. There are plenty of great deeds still to be done in the world. And I'm sure that, at least where some of them are needed, the Order of Jubal will be there.<P>Regards,
Sir Gregory<P>
<P>------------------
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Postby TimberBram on Wed Feb 14, 2001 9:52 am

I am completely in agreement with Sir Alexander and Sir Gregory on this matter.<P>Certainly the testimony of a Knight of the Order of Jubal would be acceptable proof. How about newspaper clippings or similar media coverage? I'd suggest testimony from other sources as possibilities, but the difficulty in establishing identity and <I>bona fides</I> makes that hard to handle. Any other ideas?<P>Fruthermore, no good deed is ever done for nothing. All deeds and behaviour of a CI can be taken into account, not simply those undertaken after taking his or her Oath.<P>Remember that steadfastness is part of the motto: Probi Immotiqve Este.<P>Peace and PIQE,
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Postby Silver Adept on Wed Feb 14, 2001 12:47 pm

We're working on it. We're trying to bang out some way of recognizing deeds...<P>And no chivalrous deed goes for naught, BandMan. <P>"Lo! How far the soft candle throws its beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world!" --So Shakespeare said. <P>Eventually, things starts growing... and then the whole room is illuminated. <P>------------------
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Postby No-Name on Wed Apr 04, 2001 12:40 am

Hmm... This means that those who are closely connected to the EI group have a much higher chance of being knighted than, say, well - me for example. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/tongue.gif"> I just mean that I live in a far-away country from most of you, and I sure as hell won't start to brag about what a good human being I am (not that I claim to be all that wonderful...) in order to try and get a Knights title. Even if I did something that would end up in a newspaper or something - well, who's going to read it (besides, possibly, me)? And who, pray tell, is going to translate it to the rest of you, if not me? So even if I would qualify as a Knight (a theoretical assumption for conversations sake), who of you would ever find out?<P>So there's a problem to ponder for those smarter than me...<P>(In case someone got the wrong impression: I am not trying to get a title. I joined the EI because I liked the idea, period. I have done no great deed. I do try my best to be the best man I can be, but sometimes I feel that my best isn't worth a helluva lot...)<P>------------------
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Postby Greg on Wed Apr 04, 2001 5:35 am

Hi there!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by No-Name:
<B>Hmm... This means that those who are closely connected to the EI group have a much higher chance of being knighted than, say, well - me for example.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Depends what you mean by closer...<P>If you mean geographically closer, then there's no real place to be close to.<P>The EI website is hosted with me, in Melbourne, Australia. AFAIK, I'm the only member of the Order in Australia. However, the forum is hosted at Keenspot, which is... ummm... don't really know. But I'm sure it's nowhere near a lot of the EI membership, Knights included.<P>In fact, to the best of my knowledge Sir SilverAdept and BandMan are the only two members who know each other in "real life".<P>Having said that, eyewitness testimony is only one of many forms of proof. In fact, the whole purpose of this thread was to discuss what consitutes acceptable proof. Eyewitness testimony certainly qualifies, as does a newspaper report or other third party report.<P>As to what else is acceptable... I don't really know. I think we'll recognise it when we see it. But I'm very interested in hearing suggestions. What are your thoughts?<P>Regards,
Sir Greg<P>
<P>------------------
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Postby TheSarahLady on Thu Apr 05, 2001 12:45 am

A lot of times random acts of kindness, ARE documented, even if the doer isn't aware of it, how many times have you seen in the paper a candid shot of a "hometown hero" doing what he/she assumes to be her duty and others take it as heroic, however I do agree that often enough these go without recongnition, but I was thinking, is it boasting to say scan a newpaper or newsletter article featuring yourself in order to earn the rank of KI, and in fact I am sorta conflicted by the whole idea. I would indeed like to be a KI but is it worth being boastful over?..I don't suppose I am making much sense, and am more trying to sort out my own thoughts so I will stop now ^_^<P>------------------
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Postby Greg on Thu Apr 05, 2001 5:12 am

Hi there!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheSarahLady:
<B>but I was thinking, is it boasting to say scan a newpaper or newsletter article featuring yourself in order to earn the rank of KI</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It really depends on the motivation for the deed.<P>If you are doing the great deed simply in order to be witnessed doing it and therefore get the rank of KI, then it is indeed boastful and insincere.<P>Personally, I subscribe to the philosophy that Sir Silver quoted; that goodness has it's own rewards. However, if you can provide evidence of goodness done for it's own sake, so much the better.<P>I think that a lot of CIs, or perhaps I should say potential Knights (and I see a lot of good candidates among our ranks) are getting quite hung up on the "proof" issue.<P>When I first wrote of it, I had grand visions of the Knights of old commiting great and noble deeds. I have do admit that I hadn't really considered the practicalities of it all. <P>However, the main purpose of the Knighthood is to serve as an example to the community (both our EI community and to the world) of Chivalry. Performing a great deed certainly sets an example, but it is the day-to-day life and actions which confirm the Oath and the prinicples therein.<P>In discussing whether to promote a CI to Knighthood, the conclave will look at everything known about the individual, not one individual deed in isolation. Even if there is no single great deed, the Conclave may bestow a Knighthood on the basis of good character, judgement and advice, or for something that you might not have even thought of as "great".<P>Remeber, the Order of Jubal is less than a year old at the moment. We're all feeling our way along. We probably will be months and years from now.<P>But the important thing is that we are doing it together. And as long as chivalry has a unified voice, then the Order of Jubal will continue to light the way.<P>Regards,
Sir Gregory of Melbourne<P>
<P>------------------
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Postby Silver Adept on Thu Apr 05, 2001 11:52 am

Hmm. That's true. Actually, BandMan and I are the only two at present who actually know each other IRL. <P>However, No-Name has expressed an interesting point. Many deeds of Chivalry are done in secret. <P>To quote Christian Wisdom (although not even close to exactly...):<P>"Do not go and pray like the hypocrites do, ringing loud bells and blowing trumpets. I assure you, they have already received their reward. Rather, when you pray, go to your room, lock your door, and pray to your Father in secret. Your Father, who sees what is secret, will then reward you."<P>(Not exact. In fact, not even close.)<P>But it points to a major "problem" of proof. Most deeds of the like are done spontaneously or secretly and without necessarily a lot of fanfare or newspaper/media coverage. The good stuff is almost exclusively not covered. That makes objective, third-party proof very difficult to find. And asking for a letter or something like that to prove it cheapens the matter, making it seeem like it was done for glory, not chivalry. <P>So what's a CI, or even a KI, to do about documentation? <P>------------------
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Postby Rei on Sat Apr 07, 2001 5:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Greg:
<B>Hi there!<P> Depends what you mean by closer...<P>If you mean geographically closer, then there's no real place to be close to.<P>The EI website is hosted with me, in Melbourne, Australia. AFAIK, I'm the only member of the Order in Australia. However, the forum is hosted at Keenspot, which is... ummm... don't really know. But I'm sure it's nowhere near a lot of the EI membership, Knights included.<P>In fact, to the best of my knowledge Sir SilverAdept and BandMan are the only two members who know each other in "real life".
~~~~~~~~~ <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
*waves to Greg!*<P>I'm in WA though Greg, and I'm thinking you're in Melbourne or Sydney? <P>Here's another question I'd like to put out. Or maybe its better classified as a train of thought...<P>I've been reading accounts of some of the deeds people have been doing -- and I've thought 'yeah, I do that too, but I never thought to put it up here.' It may be an Australian 'tall poppy' thing (tall poppy syndrome is the habit of Australians to take out at the knees anyone who is too self-aggrandizing) or are certain behaviours ingrained in me in such a way that I no longer see them as 'good deeds' but just a general baseline of behaviour?<P>Or am I just going to have to make a list at the end of every day and think 'yeah, that's a behaviour worthy of sharing with my fellow Companions and Knights *grynz*)<P>There is probably a point to this ramble...somewhere<P>until next time
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Postby Greg on Sun Apr 08, 2001 4:24 am

Hi there!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rei:
<B>
*waves to Greg!*<P>I'm in WA though Greg, and I'm thinking you're in Melbourne or Sydney?
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
*waves*
I'm in Melbourne, Victoria.<P>It's great to see another Aussie around here!<P>Where in WA are you?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>
Or am I just going to have to make a list at the end of every day and think 'yeah, that's a behaviour worthy of sharing with my fellow Companions and Knights *grynz*)
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, we don't subscribe to tall-poppy syndrome in the KOJ.<P>It's a difficult area we're getting in to here. My general thoughts are not to post each and every deed, but if there's something that's particularly inspirational, or you thing that it would serve as a good example to others, then by all means post it.<P>In these frantic, dark times it's good for the soul to read about good deeds being done. I have to say, it feels good even <I>talking</I> about doing them!<P>Regards,
Sir Greg<P><P>------------------
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Postby Silver Adept on Mon Apr 09, 2001 9:15 am

Another small bit of wisdom, another bit towards the "proof issue" <P>Firstly, from Shakespeare: <P>"Lo! How that little candle throws its beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world." <P>(Again, not exact. Don't quote me.) <P>Regarding proof: <P>Perhaps not to document every door opened, place given, and all of the "small things" (Quote/UnQuote) for volume, but perhaps finding the ones that have significance Perhaps one should be less concerned with size, and more concerned with quality. <P>The thought of great deeds is a wonderful thought, but perhaps the small kindnesses that we give become greater deeds to those who receive them. In so many words: Find the fulfilling deeds, not necessarily the ones that bring fame. <P>However, that really doesn't solve the proof issue, does it? Hmmm...<P>Perhaps this, then. A news clipping would be wonderful, but perhaps a letter of thanks, if received, would do. I'd be willing to look at a simple thank-you card as well. I think that those might provide hope for our CI's. <P>If you can't gain access to a scanner, your local library, school, or college should have one for public usage.<P>------------------
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Postby Rei on Thu Apr 19, 2001 12:40 am

Hi Greg<P>I'm just south of Perth, at the edge of the metro area <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"> <P>Here's a question kinda off the topic, but, hey! I'm curious *eg*<P>Where abouts IS everyone? Are we predominantly US-based, with a few outposts of chivalry in Australia and Europe, or are we more evenly spread across the globe?<P>mp+bb
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Postby Atoning_Unifex on Mon May 14, 2001 8:18 am

I might be out of order in saying this, having sworn all of, oh, three hours ago, but it's a question that I had been thinking about.<P>The problem rests in that a good deed is done for it's own reward(ie knowing you have done the good deed), and as such no-one who does the deed for those reasons is going to send in a message talking about it, hence the assembled body of knights is unlikey to ever find out about it.<P>Question, and my apologies for the naivete:<P>Does that matter?<P>As I just said, the deed is done for it's own internal reward, not so that you can claim titles. I didn't write a little oath thingy just to try and get more letters after my name: I did it mainly (Shameful fact here) so that the next time I was tempted to do something less that comptely ah, noble, I'd know that I'd be breaking a promise to be doing it. Did any of us join for kewl letters? <P>It strikes me that people who won't join because of the unreliability of promotion are maybe the people who maybe shouldn't have been promoted anyway?<P>Unifex<P>------------------
Alice was walking when she came to a fork in the path, above which sat a Cheshire Cat. <P>"Which way should I go?" asked Alice,<P>"That depends", the cat replied "Where are you going?"<P>"I don't really know" Alice admitted,<P>"In that case", the cat observed, "It doesn't really matter".<P>:Lewis Carrol,
"Alice in Wonderland".
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Postby TimberBram on Mon May 14, 2001 9:11 am

You certainly raise a valid point, Unifex.<P>The issue was never "how do I get elevated from companion to knight", but more the Knights saying "how do we determine who should be elevated".<P>Does that make sense?<P>Peace and PIQE,
Sir Timber Bram, KI Eqvites Ivbalis.
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Postby Silver Adept on Mon May 14, 2001 9:16 am

Unifex, we'ver been haggling and trying to bang out something over that issue for many a time... it's more that we're trying to figure out how we can reward the deed done with no reward expected. We're trying very hard...
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Postby Atoning_Unifex on Mon May 14, 2001 9:25 am

Sorry, I tend to come over sanctimounious when I get philosophical. <P>------------------
Alice was walking when she came to a fork in the path, above which sat a Cheshire Cat. <P>"Which way should I go?" asked Alice,<P>"That depends", the cat replied "Where are you going?"<P>"I don't really know" Alice admitted,<P>"In that case", the cat observed, "It doesn't really matter".<P>:Lewis Carrol,
"Alice in Wonderland".
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