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Postby Godai on Fri Jan 19, 2001 3:38 am

Now if the grandma is in heaven.
And heaven is paradise.
And if it is paradise her every need is met.<P>Hence she can no longer want for anything.
Since it will be provided.<P>As for me personally, I like two concepts for god/heaven/religion in general.<P>For the Religion I like the views given in Piers Anthony's Incarnations of Immortaility.
I just love the "How long is a day?" argument in one of the books.
Where God created the earth using Evolution as a tool. Heck if God says a day took millions of years then it did.<P>As for the afterlife. I think i'd like it if things happened like the movie. "Defending your life." Just was an interesting way of doing it.<P>Heh Of course theese are works of fiction but of course for all we know we could be someone elses fiction. You know maybe if I disbelieve hard enough..... *poof*<P>
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Postby Czhorat on Fri Jan 19, 2001 5:15 am

It looks like the forum debate on the existence of God spilled over into the actual comic!<P>It's pretty clear that Belinda and Jeremy have very different beliefs about what happens after death. I'm interested to see how this plays out, and whether or not it creates any friction between them. <P>Personally, I agree with Jeremy. Dead people don't want anything; they're just decomposing meat. If I'm trying to console a grieving love one I'd but it more gently, but I wouldn't lie about my beliefs...<P>What do the rest of you think?
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Postby Guest on Fri Jan 19, 2001 6:08 am

I'll join this one later on... want to see what other people think first.
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Postby Maccabee on Fri Jan 19, 2001 8:05 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Czhorat:
<B> My main question here isn't what you believe, but what you would have told Belinda. Would you tell her that Nana is sitting there with the angels and watching over her, or would you say that she's gone forever, snuffed out without a trace?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Pretty much the same answer, but not with the self-centered addendum of me personally wanting another 80 years... This is too important to lie about.<P>If I were Jeremy I'd try to distract Belinda from the pain by drawing her into a more general discussion about the afterlife -- find out why she's so certain about this. Is it from religious training that assures her of an afterlife, a personal experience, or just a gut instinct with neither experience nor authority to back it? We'll find out soon enough, I suppose. Or not. T does sometimes leave a loose thread dangling so he can deal with it five stories later -- the fraggin' bastidge. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif">
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Postby Maccabee on Fri Jan 19, 2001 10:24 am

Dunno. No conclusive proof either way. I certainly hope that we're more than a bunch of electro-chemical pulses wrapped up in a big sack o' amino acids and lipids, though.<P>I'll find out one way or the other eventually, I guess... but hopefully not for another 80 years or so. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif">
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Postby Czhorat on Fri Jan 19, 2001 10:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maccabee:
<B>Dunno. No conclusive proof either way. I certainly hope that we're more than a bunch of electro-chemical pulses wrapped up in a big sack o' amino acids and lipids, though.<P>I'll find out one way or the other eventually, I guess... but hopefully not for another 80 years or so. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My main question here isn't what you believe, but what you would have told Belinda. Would you tell her that Nana is sitting there with the angels and watching over her, or would you say that she's gone forever, snuffed out without a trace?
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Postby Sveldheim on Fri Jan 19, 2001 10:34 am

Afterlife?<P>Wow, I'm obviously *waaay* too hooked on fantasy...my first thought (influenced by the European castle and the "not saying goodbye" thing) was:<P>"Belinda's grandma is a VAMPIRE!"<P>(I mean, if we've already got aliens...)<P>
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Postby K. Ivan Ruppert on Fri Jan 19, 2001 11:31 am

My response would have gotten me decked <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/biggrin.gif">
I believe that the dead are by and large in a MUCH better and happier place, and therefore, grieving is a selfish act where one pities themself for not having the loved one in their daily life. Of course, most people don't share such a callous attitude, so I try not to discuss it with people who are actually grieving<P>-K<P>------------------
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Postby gwalla on Fri Jan 19, 2001 12:15 pm

"I'm not afraid to die. I just don't want to be there when it happens."<P> - Woody Allen <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"><P>------------------
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Postby Czhorat on Sat Jan 20, 2001 5:36 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by reinder:
<B> Well, wouldn't she already know my opinion about that? The relationship has been ongoing for a few years so I can't imagine that wouldn't have come up.<P>However, judging from the text fragment in the strip, Jeremy is wrong in assuming that dead people can't "want" anything. I can't wait to see what's in Nana's will.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The will says what she WOULD HAVE WANTED (past tense). This is different than what she WANTS (present tense). I'm with Jeremy in believing that she no longer wants anything.<P>Personally I'd try to phrase it a bit gentler and more tactuflly than Jeremy, but I would still remain true to my beliefs: that death is an ending. It's up to the living to be there for eachother and move on. I wouldn't debate the issue at that point, of course.
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Postby Guest on Sat Jan 20, 2001 8:38 am

With no idea whatsoever about what Jeremy *should* do, I have to admit that in his place, I *would* be far more diplomatic (or chicken). <P>But then, I'm a genuine agnostic by now. I consider myself "largely Christian," but wrestle with doubts about the big questions and flat-out disagreements about several points of doctrine. It doesn't help that the church in my area seems to be crawling toward conservatism...<P>With that kind of conflict, I'm even more reluctant than most people to push my belief, or lack of it, onto anyone else.<P>On the other hand, this is probably about as tactful <A HREF="http://"http://coolcatstudio.com/d/20010108.html"" TARGET=_blank>as</A> <A HREF="http://"http://coolcatstudio.com/d/20001218.html"" TARGET=_blank>Jeremy</A> <A HREF="http://"http://coolcatstudio.com/d/20000915.html"" TARGET=_blank>gets.</A>
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Postby reinder on Sat Jan 20, 2001 10:36 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Czhorat:
<B> My main question here isn't what you believe, but what you would have told Belinda. Would you tell her that Nana is sitting there with the angels and watching over her, or would you say that she's gone forever, snuffed out without a trace?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, wouldn't she already know my opinion about that? The relationship has been ongoing for a few years so I can't imagine that wouldn't have come up.<P>However, judging from the text fragment in the strip, Jeremy is wrong in assuming that dead people can't "want" anything. I can't wait to see what's in Nana's will.<P>------------------
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Postby chase82 on Sun Jan 21, 2001 3:49 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sveldheim:
<B>Afterlife?<P>Wow, I'm obviously *waaay* too hooked on fantasy...my first thought (influenced by the European castle and the "not saying goodbye" thing) was:<P>"Belinda's grandma is a VAMPIRE!"<P>(I mean, if we've already got aliens...)<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My first thought (since her name was Anastasia) was; Oh, wow! Maybe her grandmother was *the* Anastasia. That thought lasted about five seconds (pretty long for me to hold onto a thought ^_^). Hey, I was really tired when I was reading this
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Postby Tom the Fanboy on Sun Jan 21, 2001 5:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chase82:
<B> My first thought (since her name was Anastasia) was; Oh, wow! Maybe her grandmother was *the* Anastasia. That thought lasted about five seconds (pretty long for me to hold onto a thought ^_^). Hey, I was really tired when I was reading this
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Postby Godai on Sun Jan 21, 2001 8:35 am

"And he can do this thing with his mind... Oh man you just wouldn't believe..."<P>Ok ummm The whole arc will probably concern family. Her having a baby, nana passing on.
Perhaps in the will it is required for her to have a female child and name it after nana.<P>Ok so maybe its a stretch.<P>
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Postby Sveldheim on Mon Jan 22, 2001 6:40 am

Heh. Looks from today's episode that I may have been on the right track with the vampire thing after all!
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Postby Maccabee on Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:52 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chase82:
<B> And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make
~ A Beatles song off Abbey Road (can
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Postby Vallie on Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:06 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Czhorat:
<B>It looks like the forum debate on the existence of God spilled over into the actual comic!<P>It's pretty clear that Belinda and Jeremy have very different beliefs about what happens after death. I'm interested to see how this plays out, and whether or not it creates any friction between them. <P>Personally, I agree with Jeremy. Dead people don't want anything; they're just decomposing meat. If I'm trying to console a grieving love one I'd but it more gently, but I wouldn't lie about my beliefs...<P>What do the rest of you think?
************************<P>My main question here isn't what you believe, but what you would have told Belinda.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What would I have said to Belinda? <P>The same thing I said to my sister when she said she talks to my Grandfather.<P>FYI, my Grandfather has been dead for 5 years, and my sister was two when he passed on. She very barely remembers him.<P>I very calmly sat back, listened to what she said, and played it like a cool normal thing. Deep inside, I questioned whether she was telling the truth... FYI, she's very manipulative, and would say something like that to pull my emotional strings.<P>Deep inside, if she is telling the truth, I wish I could talk to him too... God, I miss him. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/frown.gif"><P>Of course, I'd never be able to handle seeing or talking to a ghost.. I'd just freak out a little too much. Grandpa would know that and would never try to upset me. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>As for do I believe in an "afterlife", Yes. Very much so. In the same respect, I believe in a before life, and a previous life and a eternal existence of one's soul. I've believed it.. forever. I've never disbelieved it. How can a soul not exist? <P>Let's say a soul is your energy. We all have an energy about us. We have energy inside us... even if they are electric impulses. Electricity is energy. One of the very first things I learned in my high school chemistry class was that Matter can not be created nor destroyed. It just changes form. When you heat water, and the water evaporates, it doesn't just not exist. It becomes vapor. It's transparent.. You can't see it or touch it.. but it's there! Electricity.. if you have a light bulb, and you turn it on and make light, there's energy there! When you turn it off, the electricity doesn't just disappear.<P>How could our energy ever just disappear?<P>That would be against the most basic law of nature!<P>So something MUST happen to our energy, our soul. We're eternal. We'll always exist. Maybe not in a bodily form, but our energy will endure.<P>Heh, so that's my scientific/spiritual rant.
Not bad for my first post to this board.
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Postby Vallie on Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:37 am

Of course, the other question is would the deceased care to haunt someone because their last wishes weren't fulfilled?<P>My response, I think the dead have better things to do with their time. I don't think the deceased care who wore what to the funeral or how ugly the gravestone is. Funerals seem to be more for the family's well being more than the guest of honor. It's a nice way for the family and friends to have closure and say goodbye.<P>I do believe in "ghosts" somewhat. By "ghosts" I mean the variety that haunt and seem to be bound to places on Earth. I don't believe that the majority of spirits have "unfinished business". I think that in order for a spirit to be bound this way the entity would have to be extremely troubled... lost. It's an extreme circumstance.<P>But I would never say that it's something impossible. I live in a town that was used as a battlefield, and grew up by houses that were used to harbor slaves during the Underground Railroad. I've heard about and personally experienced too many things to say haunting is impossible. <P>But I wouldn't ask anyone else to believe until they'd experienced it for themselves.<P>Vallie
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Postby Maboo on Tue Jan 23, 2001 4:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vallie:
<B>I don't think the deceased care who wore what to the funeral or how ugly the gravestone is.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My mum has informed me that if any flower arrangements at her funeral come in the form of the word "MUM" or variation thereof, she'll be haunting me to within an inch of my life. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"><P>Actually, I believe in ghosts. Or, at least, supernaturalism. When you've had a vase of dried flowers thrown at your head in an empty classroom, you HAVE to believe in something.<P>Mab.<P>------------------
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Postby Czhorat on Tue Jan 23, 2001 5:32 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vallie:
<B> What would I have said to Belinda? <P>The same thing I said to my sister when she said she talks to my Grandfather.<P>FYI, my Grandfather has been dead for 5 years, and my sister was two when he passed on. She very barely remembers him.<P>I very calmly sat back, listened to what she said, and played it like a cool normal thing. Deep inside, I questioned whether she was telling the truth... FYI, she's very manipulative, and would say something like that to pull my emotional strings.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Am I reading this right? Is this a seven year old we're talking about? If so, I'd probably handle it differently; at the very least, one shouldn't letting oneself be manipulated by someone that young. Secondly, I might have a talk about the difference between what we want and what is - especially with someone that young. I'd try to find where she gets this belief from, and discuss it. Then again, you know what MY beliefs are...<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
As for do I believe in an "afterlife", Yes. Very much so. In the same respect, I believe in a before life, and a previous life and a eternal existence of one's soul. I've believed it.. forever. I've never disbelieved it. How can a soul not exist? <P>Let's say a soul is your energy. We all have an energy about us. We have energy inside us... even if they are electric impulses. Electricity is energy. One of the very first things I learned in my high school chemistry class was that Matter can not be created nor destroyed. It just changes form. When you heat water, and the water evaporates, it doesn't just not exist. It becomes vapor. It's transparent.. You can't see it or touch it.. but it's there! Electricity.. if you have a light bulb, and you turn it on and make light, there's energy there! When you turn it off, the electricity doesn't just disappear.<P>How could our energy ever just disappear?<P>That would be against the most basic law of nature!<P>So something MUST happen to our energy, our soul. We're eternal. We'll always exist. Maybe not in a bodily form, but our energy will endure.<P>Heh, so that's my scientific/spiritual rant.
Not bad for my first post to this board.
Vallie</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree - that's one heck of a first post. I'm not saying that an afterlife doesn't exist, but I don't think your argument really holds water. Neither energy nor matter can be destroyed. Information, however, can be lost. <P>Assume, for example, that you were to write a poem on a piece of paper. If someone were to burn that paper, its mass would still exist in the form of ashes and smoke. The poem, however, would be lost. <P>While energy can not be destroyed, it can be dissipated and lose any coherence or information. If whatever makes you you is defined by electrical impulses, death might be analagous to erasing the memory in a computer. <P>I'm not saying that there is no life after death (at least not in this post!), but I am saying that you can't use the laws of thermodynamics to prove that there is.
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Postby Czhorat on Tue Jan 23, 2001 5:39 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vallie:
<B>Of course, the other question is would the deceased care to haunt someone because their last wishes weren't fulfilled?<P>My response, I think the dead have better things to do with their time. I don't think the deceased care who wore what to the funeral or how ugly the gravestone is. Funerals seem to be more for the family's well being more than the guest of honor. It's a nice way for the family and friends to have closure and say goodbye.<P>I do believe in "ghosts" somewhat. By "ghosts" I mean the variety that haunt and seem to be bound to places on Earth. I don't believe that the majority of spirits have "unfinished business". I think that in order for a spirit to be bound this way the entity would have to be extremely troubled... lost. It's an extreme circumstance.<P>But I would never say that it's something impossible. I live in a town that was used as a battlefield, and grew up by houses that were used to harbor slaves during the Underground Railroad. I've heard about and personally experienced too many things to say haunting is impossible. <P>But I wouldn't ask anyone else to believe until they'd experienced it for themselves.<P>Vallie</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This all reall depends on the larger questions of what death is, what a soul is, and what the afterlife is like. <P>In the kind of life after death that many of us would want, the kind in which you are still you, the dead would care about the same things that were important to them when they were living - if this includes communicating with your loved ones, that's what you'd do. If you were always concerned with appearances and your standing in the community, you might want to see who comes to the funeral.<P>If, on the other hand, death changes aspects of your personality or values, you might do something that your living self would have considered completely incomprehensible. <P>One thing that comes to mind is an idea from Terry Pratchett's Discworld books: dead spirits had no fear. Why not? Fear and emotional reactions come from the endocrine system - dead people have no bodies and, therefore, no glands! I don't think it fits the real world, but it IS a fun idea...
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Postby Vallie on Tue Jan 23, 2001 7:22 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Czhorat:
<B> Am I reading this right? Is this a seven year old we're talking about? If so, I'd probably handle it differently; at the very least, one shouldn't letting oneself be manipulated by someone that young. Secondly, I might have a talk about the difference between what we want and what is - especially with someone that young. I'd try to find where she gets this belief from, and discuss it. Then again, you know what MY beliefs are...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>
^_^ Yes I do. <P>Yes, my sister is seven years old. One doesn't let herself be manipulated by the young one, but she does know when the young one is trying. The manipulation is only effective on our parents.. I know better.<P>Yes, it is surprizing, not to mention alarming... then again, you don't know my sister.<P>As for where does my sister get this belief... it's a good question. She's growing up Catholic. The ability to converse with the dead is not something discussed in the Catholic religion. <P>I do believe though that small children (and animals) can sometimes hear or see things adults can't. I believe it is possible that she could be telling the truth, and if she really can talk to our deceased Grandfather... I'm not going to tell her it's bad or wrong. The best I can do is listen to her and try to understand.<P>I know you think it can't happen, but that's the difference between you and I.<P>Vallie<P>
<p>[This message has been edited by Vallie (edited 01-23-2001).]
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Postby Vallie on Tue Jan 23, 2001 8:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Czhorat:
<B> I agree - that's one heck of a first post. I'm not saying that an afterlife doesn't exist, but I don't think your argument really holds water. Neither energy nor matter can be destroyed. Information, however, can be lost. <P>Assume, for example, that you were to write a poem on a piece of paper. If someone were to burn that paper, its mass would still exist in the form of ashes and smoke. The poem, however, would be lost. <P>While energy can not be destroyed, it can be dissipated and lose any coherence or information. If whatever makes you you is defined by electrical impulses, death might be analagous to erasing the memory in a computer. <P>I'm not saying that there is no life after death (at least not in this post!), but I am saying that you can't use the laws of thermodynamics to prove that there is.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>*reads through this carefully a few times before answering*<P>I'm sort of confused about your response, so I'm going to phrase what I say carefully. And keep in mind, the questions I may ask are not to be condesending or meant out of spite... I simply want to understand you better. ^_^<P>When I say "soul" what does that mean to you?<P>I'm going to say what I've gathered from your response.. Do you believe our soul is just our personality... our ego.. our memories... information to be lost? <P>When I say soul, it, to me, means very basically a perpetual energy within and surrounding the human body. I don't believe it carries "information"... information is stored in the human brain. Personality, ego that's all stored in your brain. I really think aspects of personality are genetic, and would have to be something programmed into your brain. If you damage the human brain, information is inaccessable but the energy is still there. Inaccessable, but maybe not lost.<P>Actually, I often wonder about what our brains are capable of. We have a large percentage of space that's unavailable... I wonder, what would we be capable of, or what else could we know if we could use those parts of our brains?<P>Anyway, that being said... I believe our brains store information, not our souls. So what happens to the soul when we die? You agreed ENERGY cannot be destroyed. I refuse to believe our soul is just a poem lost in ashes.<P>Vallie
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Postby Guest on Tue Jan 23, 2001 10:41 am

Actually, children and animals CAN hear into the ultrasonic, to varying degrees. Children's eardrums are smaller, therefor able to pick up shorter waves. By this logic, it should not seem impossible that your sister could hear your grandfather. He'd just sound like a mouse.<P>*starts pulling out his library on ghost activity, pausing briefly at the ESP section to remember the good times*
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