12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby skythorn on Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:19 pm

BinaryTears wrote:Actually, the thing that really makes me sad is knowing we won't see any more of Zimmy, the fourth member of our party. She was hot.


You dont remember her twin sister?
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby CommitsPuns on Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:48 pm

DAMMIT aggrofizzy... I was JUST about to type that! :gonk:

sigh... anyway....

I think the "unaccounted variable" has to do with the 2 million times they have been through the maze.
Up until now, there have been tricky moments, but nothing yet that says in two MILLION tries they would not have succeeded. This goes back to my theory some time ago that eventually the maze must get a group that CANNOT succeed through it. In an infinite number of iterations, there must someday be the one that blasts past the known end of the probability curve.

As for the belt buckle conundrum, if the oblivion holes (and I find it hilarious that one can COUNT the NUMBER of oblivions nearby) swallowed up the floor where pipemax was laying, (and it must - being dead but not X'd would mean that team will return after they "lose") then FMK will have in their minds some other reason they are stapled to the wall. It may occur to them after some thought that it makes no sense, but it is their current reality.
Question: Why did Minmax throw his buckle in the portal then?
Hint: Why did he throw his ONLY boot in the hole RIGHT after saying he wouldn't because he's "not an idiot"?
Answer: because he IS an idiot!
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Ahh Chaos, my old friend.

Postby vector010 on Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:54 pm

There are a few possibilities I can see as to why this isn't working for old PsiMax. I'm not sure what Thunt is going for, but these are plausible.

1) PsiMax accounted for all variables, but failed to account for the oblivion he created.

Good old chaos theory at work here. Any system where the outcome is highly sensitive to initial conditions yield wildly diverging outcomes with small variances in those conditions. This makes long-term predictions of the outcomes impossible. By "creating" oblivion PsiMax has created a change in initial condition making the outcome chaotic. Chaos theory would also prevent him from accurate prediction if a new team was introduced every "round" unless the maze resets in the event of a TPK situation and PsiMax successfully kills everyone including himself every round until he has determined all variables. I think the actual reason is different though since this is a DnD based world which would indicate random "rolls" deciding the outcome of the events. That would make the system only slightly dependent on initial conditions. In this case failing to account for his oblivion still causes issues for him. The results of each encounter with one of these holes would be determined at random even if the initial variables are the same. The outcomes could only be probabilistically determined, which would leave room for outliers to completely mess his plan up.

2) Dividing by zero - Error correction and the insertion of logical values

The reality #180 FMK group can accept their MM never existing. Forgath is alarmed as MM falls into the hole, he ceases to exist, Forgath is now alarmed and looking at a hole that just opened. He would assume he is alarmed by the hole opening, and since MM never existed they can move on glad that nobody fell in. Our reality FMK group is having trouble though because MM's actions are causing Kin to basically attempt to divide by zero. I see Kin's thought process going something like this:

MinMax is going to throw something in which should help us determine the nature of these holes

*First Boot In*

MinMax is going to throw something in, but it is taking a bit of time, and it should be something other than his boot since he only has one
It is strange that MM is only wearing one boot, even weirder that I just noticed it now.
Even more peculiar is that they got only one boot when buying clothes in Brassmoon.

*Second Boot In*

MM is going to throw something in, he should have has time to throw several things in by now, and he can't throw in boots since he doesn't have any
It is strange that MM runs around barefoot now, and odd that I just noticed it.
Wait, he has been barefoot since they bought clothes in Brassmoon? That would mean he had foot coverings before they bought clothes.
Why would he get rid of his foot protection upon buying clothes?

*Pants In - Thoughts continued from prev (At this point the only clothes he would be wearing in her memory are cape, underwear bought at Brassmoon, belt buckle with no belt).. Rest is armor*

Of course he has never had pants either... But surely he was not walking around naked so he must have bought... (Div by zero error here)
Wait, he is taking extremely long to throw anything in, AND the clothes he has do not agree with the idea that he bought clothes.
What if he IS throwing things in and somehow that makes us forget he ever had them? (Enter error correction with logical insertion)
Then he DID have boots, and pants, and possibly other clothes! I must warn him!

Upon giving positive value to the existence of the items the system starts to stall.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby rippedNchipper on Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:09 pm

Just throwing it out there but, what if somewhere between meeting Kin and entering the maze Minmax gained a level without mentioning it to the rest of the party and alloted it to intelligence off panel because he likes Kin. In doing so he became a contradiction; his name is Minmax but he is no longer minmaxed like the other realities something psimax couldn't account for.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby FullmoonCat on Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:19 pm

Mosko wrote:I think the unaccounted variable is simply Kin realising that existence is being ereased.


I agree. Since Psymax's plan seems to be pretty vague and made up of concepts, the very idea that Kin had deduced that something that never existed actually did exist is fighting against those concepts. instead of 1=0, it's 1=.00003 or something, which isn't good enough to wipe out reality.

On a side note, I also agree with Godbot about the anticlimax of this development. So Psymax uses his mental powers to create holographic representations of gears and shit, and they somehow wipe out reality? Where's him kicking down the door to the MoM's control room (whatever that may be)? Battling the immortal semi-godlike guardian of this pocket dimension? Hacking into the system and changing the settings to contradict reality?

Without all the in-between, it seems kind of like he could have just pulled out a piece of chalk and written an equation on the wall to achieve the same result. Otherwise, it suggests that Psymax is so powerful that his created representations link into the very fabric of this existence, which makes him more of a god than a simple psion.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Daize on Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:27 pm

People, think of it. Panel 4: PsiMax realises something is wrong. Panels later than that: Kin thinks.

It is something that has either happened in panel 1-3, or something that happened or "is (already there)" before that.
EDIT: or to be more precise, something that has happened before panel 4, but becomes after panel 4 - also possible.

EDIT2: Ah, of course that's already mentioned. Then I'm going with this one:


Thrudh wrote:The unaccounted variable?

Forgath and MinMax in realith #156 are Player Characters.

Very lame, but still makes more sense. If there are a gazilion of alternative dimensions fighting over the end of the maze, then what would be apparent in this reality, that isn't apparent in the others (considering the fault is in "our" reality specifically)? The fact that they're PC's is one of the few options...
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby multilis on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:04 pm

First line: "You mean your pinned to the wall too?!"

It could be as simple as stapled to the wall so can't be sucked into their hole. The oblivion machine may simply open up a portal/dimensional gate to oblivion near every target that magically sucks the target in. 6 holes for 6 targets (group they were fighting was sucked in), on Minmax side 2 of the holes appeared so close to each other they look like one.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Daize on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:16 pm

Hmm... I don't really believe that they're "holes", rather than "nothingness" in which the matter dissolves. This is at least the impression I get from ThisMax's scream here: http://www.goblinscomic.com/12092011-2/ . His scream doesn't indicate that he's moving further away, or that the scream is becoming softer... it just gradually becomes "nothing".

This being said, if everything becomes "nothing", I don't see how a simple pin in the wall would stop that.

I'd love to see other/new arguments and thoughts on the matter though :)
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby MrAsmodeus on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:21 pm

Lowkey wrote:Theories and philosophies aside, I need to point out how hilarious it is that Minmax's first idea upon seeing something completely alien is to throw his clothing at it.


The true hilarity is.. he hasn't tried to pee on it yet.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby multilis on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:27 pm

Daize wrote:This being said, if everything becomes "nothing", I don't see how a simple pin in the wall would stop that.


Is Psimax concerned with "everything" or "everyone"?

If everyone then the goal may be to eliminate every person, while not caring what happens to rest of maze. Only living people "suffer". If so then perhaps only one hole per person then the job is done. If so there may only be 4 people left in the maze.

Something destroying everything will keep making holes, till everything is gone unless the machine is stalled/broken.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby m0rtimer on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:38 pm

MrAsmodeus wrote:
Lowkey wrote:Theories and philosophies aside, I need to point out how hilarious it is that Minmax's first idea upon seeing something completely alien is to throw his clothing at it.


The true hilarity is.. he hasn't tried to pee on it yet.


"That's strange, I don't have to pee anymore..."
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Jakesdad on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:47 pm

Boy, what an expensive plot twist. Not for Kin, Forgath and Minmax, but for Thunt.

Now he has to go back through every page in the archives and fix Minmax's outfit in each to match up with current reality. Not to mention recalling and reprinting every copy of Goblins Book 1 and 2.

Yep. Just doesn't pay to use timeline altering plotlines.

:D
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby AgiHammerthief on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:54 pm

so I guess Kin doesn't want MinMax to go permanently invisible :wink:
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby currentlyawake on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:11 pm

Aeton wrote:Contradiction time! If Minmax was pantsless what did he use to defeat Forghast and Pipemax? Surely he wouldn't have need for a belt.

He used the belt to hold up his sheath (sword), prior to having pants.
I'm assuming the trio can't fall into the holes because they are pinned to the wall, and psimax can't kill them because he's got to push them into the holes alive or the maze of many will bring them back.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby ZazuYen on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:27 pm

I just had to post to say this episode made me laugh out loud in my office. Great post.

My 2 cents on whats happening would be that PsiMax's attempt to erase this pocket universe has two critical flaws.

1. It isn't instantaneous and thus inevitably creates, if only briefly, paradoxes. PsiMax probably didn't think this would matter because the erasure works on some kind of cascading effect, so that if MinMaxe's belt buckle got erased than it's huge copy would quickly follow and the existence of the people it crushed immediately after that and so on until nothing was left and all paradoxes were resolved. However, this time lag coupled with point number 2 below allows Krin to deduce what's going on and changes the variables before the erasure is complete.

2. He didn't time-box the erasures effects on peoples memory to only their time within the pocket universe. Again he probably thought this wasn't important because they were all going to stop existing eventually, but because Krin's memories had to try and cope with MinMax's boots and pants no longer existing all the way back to their shopping trip and it doesn't make much sense, she's able to deduce something is not right. If the erasures effect on memory only went back as far as when they entered the pocket universe then they'd think MinMax's pants and boots had vanished when they entered the dungeon, odd for sure but then it's a pretty odd place and Krin might not have realized what was going on so quickly.

It's also worth noting that PsiMax's algorithm erases THIS pocket universe but not anything outside of it. MinMax still DID have boots and pants up until he entered this dungeons alternate reality. That hasn't changed. It's a fault in the algorithm that everyones memories of his having them before is being effected.

Heh, if MinMax were to pee into the reality erasure he would, the whole time he was peeing, think he JUST started peeing, and the very instant he stopped peeing he would become frustrated because he WANTS to pee into the erasure but can't because for some reason he doesn't have to pee. Which is odd because it's been a long time since he last peed.
Last edited by ZazuYen on Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Wolfie21384 on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:41 pm

ZazuYen wrote:Heh, if MinMax were to pee into the reality erasure he would, the whole time he was peeing, think he JUST started peeing, and the very instant he stopped peeing he would become frustrated because he WANTES to pee into the erasure but can't because for some reason he doesn't have to pee. Which is odd because it's been a long time since he last peed.


Ok that made me laugh and nearly snort my Jambalaya (which would have been grossly unpleasant). :D

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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Godbot on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:49 pm

Maybe the unaccounted variable is that in this iteration, MinMax and his group have to win, because this is the iteration that Herbert is actually bothering to DM after listing all the times that they failed.

In other words, PsiMax didn't account for plot armor.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby BinaryTears on Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:25 pm

Psymax is about to encounter the nemesis of every great coding effort. The last minute improvised patch. Welcome to Bugland.

This should be interesting.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby mnementh on Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:39 pm

The unaccounted for variable? The bug in PsiMax's program? The drain on his carefully planned system of uncreation?

The MoM just got SlashDotted.

[EDIT] After careful consideration it occurs to me: Kin's reality check on a pantsless MinMax just returned a failed checksum error. :shifty:


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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Madrabbit on Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:20 pm

WhiteHawk wrote:Somehow, I can't see a few staples holding a crumbling reality together against ultimate oblivion.
Ductape on the other hand...

I'm thinking the critical flaw in PM's plan is that he doesn't realize he's already been defeated. With an infinite number of parties showing up the odds of one of them eventually stopping him hit 100%.
Last edited by Madrabbit on Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Glasskitten on Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:29 pm

TripsTraps wrote:This page makes a lot of sense, actually.

Kin remembers that she has never seen him wearing pants. But she can't remember what he looks like without pants. Its an irreconcilable contradiction in thought that only she cannot reconcile, seeing as she's never seen Minmax without pants, but Minmax and Forgath have.


While the "A WizardPsion Did It" nature of this instance might itself resolve that problem, it's something that bothers me about most memory-alteration storylines: Where do they get the sensory data for the new memories?


WhiteHawk wrote:
BinaryTears wrote:Actually, the thing that really makes me sad is knowing we won't see any more of Zimmy, the fourth member of our party. She was hot.


Not only that, but now nobody will even remember that she existed. :'(


Now what am I supposed to do with all my Zimmy fanart? D:
...
Wait, someone remind me why I created a fan-character named Zimmy and then drew pictures of her? o_0 *throws away fanart*
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby babyeater on Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:49 pm

all this paradox wheres Dean Stockwell and Ziggy when you need them...
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby spiderwrangler on Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:18 pm

The favorite thought seems to be that Kin realizing there is an inconsistency is the variable Psimax detects, but I still don't think this holds up. If you take the panels chronologically, he detects an unaccounted variable BEFORE Minmax starts chucking clothing into the holes.

Of course I'm still hoping for Minmax and Forgath's makeout session http://www.goblinscomic.com/02152011/ being the Chekov's Gun behind PsiMax's issues...
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby terenak on Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:19 pm

I have no idea if anyone else thought of this, it's not a theory of the variable, but more on the face Kin makes, MinMax has been throwing in his clothes. What if he decided to throw in his loincloth and that gave Kin the Jolt she needed to realize, yeah that would NOT be someone she would travel around with under NO circumstances.

A far more humorous theory I think and probably the LEAST likely lol.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Jakesdad on Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:23 pm

Glasskitten wrote:[size=85]
TripsTraps wrote:This page makes a lot of sense, actually.

Kin remembers that she has never seen him wearing pants. But she can't remember what he looks like without pants. Its an irreconcilable contradiction in thought that only she cannot reconcile, seeing as she's never seen Minmax without pants, but Minmax and Forgath have.


While the "A WizardPsion Did It" nature of this instance might itself resolve that problem, it's something that bothers me about most memory-alteration storylines: Where do they get the sensory data for the new memories?

That's kind of the point. Kin remembers that he hasn't worn pants but doesn't have an image in her head of what that looks like. It's simply missing. That contradiction tells here something is wrong.

Kind of like the conversation with your buddy. "Dude, don't you remember when you walked into the girl's locker room by mistake and saw the head cheerleader naked?" "Man, if I had done that, I would remember it."

Everyone's had that conversation, right? :-)

Glasskitten wrote:Now what am I supposed to do with all my Zimmy fanart? D:

What Zimmy fanart? I checked my hard drive and it wasn't there. I think you'll find the same.
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