12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Khalen on Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:44 am

I was just wondering, if PsiMax miscalculated something because of some changes in individual values?
Like if u look at this http://www.goblinscomic.com/09172010-2/ , Kin is saying some interesting words...
Hope u can understand what I mean :D Sorry if not ;)
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Godbot on Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:45 am

ChangesEverything wrote:

Well, that answers that question.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby DreagerEx on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:19 am

ChangesEverything wrote:Honestly, Thunt, you'll have to try this in real life:

- Put on some long pants.
- Put on knee-high boots that go over the pants.
- Release the belt and let the pants fall to your ankles (and over the boots).
- Now, while standing upright, get your right foot up and remove the boot.

I'd have to recommend you do this on a soft floor, or actually pin your neck to the wall before trying this...

His boots aren't Knee-high though but in one of the frames it looked like he pulled the boot through the pant leg so he could take it off. I find that more implausible, but eh he could have ripped them to do it.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Halfwrong on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:28 am

Godbot wrote:It's the power of looooove



this is what i keep expecting it to come down to...

if evil is winning throughout most of the universes, Psimax may not even know what love is, how to calculate the emotional variable of love, or find it's not even possible to calculate it
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Messenger on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:44 am

Aeton wrote:Contradiction time! If Minmax was pantsless what did he use to defeat Forghast and Pipemax? Surely he wouldn't have need for a belt.
That's how Kin figured things out.

SilverMK2 wrote:I personally would have called this one "No Pants" :D

Or possibly, "Look Kin; No Pants!" :D
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby madkitty on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:48 am

I was thinking, though this probably isn't it. But if they went there specificially for "the jade teapot" and it was wiped from existance, then that would change the very course of their lives and they would never enter the maze. Not sure this theory works simply because if the treasure gets erased, then no one (or very few) would want to go so that probably isn't it. Then again, that could be it, Psimax might have been waiting for a full company of adventurers going in "for the heak of it" and not "for a specific item".

Honestly though Messengers explanation is pretty good too. Though I am not sure realization is the key here.

... or maybe kin is a latent psionicist? :D
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Raza on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:58 am

Haha. This conversation was designed for minmax to be in.

Messenger wrote:But this does the raise the question of how reality does work with PsiMax's meddling. So the pants and boots truly ceased to exist (in the true oblivion sense that PsiMax discussed) but it doesn't stop the logical contradictions raised by the erasure of an object from its reality. Just as it's illogical to truly be able to talk about nothingness or nothing or oblivion and where 1 = 0, so does PsiMax's process result in other illogical paradoxes.

Yeah, there seems to be a contradiction here. Either erasing an object retroactively synchronizes the universe with its never-having-existed - which would include removing memories, but also adjusting the rest of characters' frames of reference so that the absence of those memories makes sense with everything else they know - or it removes the object and accepts the contradictions, including leaving memories.

Honestly what we're seeing here looks more like some kind of high level psionic faux-oblivion, a mixture of physical destruction and incomplete telepathic memory adjustments, than a true metaphysical absolute.

ETA Psimax is a retconjuror! Oh sh-
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby skythorn on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:00 am

Am completely stumped by what ever feature of Reality 156 which may be an unaccountable variable. Kin & MinMax being fond loving supportive campaigners may be it, the anymug may be it - but other than this, i have no clue.

Possibly something to do with Forgath, as character development has happened for Kin and for MinMax - but again, I have no idea what it could be.

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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby muklowd on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:00 am

It's cos Kin is so smart - she is KinMax!! :)
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Swiftbow on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:08 am

SharesLoot wrote:I think Kin is the only being in the maze intelligent to figure out that Psymax' plan relies on a wrong premise. He could make it happen, despite it being a logical error, since everyone believes that he can.

Remember, this is a D&D game, and there's a player who tells the DM that he can erase that reality. Since the DM is fooled, he will allow it, but Kin is played by someone too intelligent to let the evil player get away with it. Remember Kin in the gatehouse at Brassmoon city? She is a bit of a rules-lawyer, perfect for this situation.

My theory, erroneous as it may be.


I always felt like it was a world where people play their own characters, and "DMs" are godlike entities. I'm aware there are a couple comics that kind of contradict this, but I choose to ignore them because the story seems significantly weaker to me if it's just a game.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby TripsTraps on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:10 am

This page makes a lot of sense, actually.

Kin remembers that she has never seen him wearing pants. But she can't remember what he looks like without pants. Its an irreconcilable contradiction in thought that only she cannot reconcile, seeing as she's never seen Minmax without pants, but Minmax and Forgath have.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Raza on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:14 am

TripsTraps wrote:This page makes a lot of sense, actually.

Kin remembers that she has never seen him wearing pants. But she can't remember what he looks like without pants. Its an irreconcilable contradiction in thought that only she cannot reconcile, seeing as she's never seen Minmax without pants, but Minmax and Forgath have.

Her reasoning makes sense, but the fact that that's happening doesn't. Not unless the oblivion holes are affecting memory directly, rather than re-ordering the history that created them.

Which would make them more like amnesia holes, if anything.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby thinkslogically on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:21 am

I reckon PsyMax has met his match intelligence-wise with Kin.

Khalen wrote: was just wondering, if PsiMax miscalculated something because of some changes in individual values?
Like if u look at this http://www.goblinscomic.com/09172010-2/ , Kin is saying some interesting words...
Hope u can understand what I mean :D Sorry if not ;)


It is likely that PsyMax is going to be pretty damn arrogant by now re. his plan / intelligence, and quite possible that he believes he has killed off the only characters that could / would try to stop him (his own Kin / Forgath). That would mean that he has assumed that everyone will get erased from existence without ever realising anything is wrong (and therefore never act to stop it). Our Kin (possibly thanks to the extra time given by the neck staples) has figured it out, and can act to prevent it (the new variable).

The link Khalen posted above suggests that in Thuntverse, the end result of an equation (='oblivion plan') can be changed by altering the variables (='individual behaviour'), which means that simply by being aware of the purpose of the holes they can change the outcome.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby PostsInForums on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:26 am

Raza wrote: TripsTraps wrote:This page makes a lot of sense, actually.

Kin remembers that she has never seen him wearing pants. But she can't remember what he looks like without pants. Its an irreconcilable contradiction in thought that only she cannot reconcile, seeing as she's never seen Minmax without pants, but Minmax and Forgath have.


Her reasoning makes sense, but the fact that that's happening doesn't. Not unless the oblivion holes are affecting memory directly, rather than re-ordering the history that created them.

Which would make them more like amnesia holes, if anything.


The variable here could simply be that the three of them are not in the same room as each group is expected to be. This is what allows Kin to make the deductions that she makes, the fact that they can not observe each other and thereby acquire the visual data to support a new memory of the way things were.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby PostsInForums on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:31 am

TripsTraps wrote:This page makes a lot of sense, actually.

Kin remembers that she has never seen him wearing pants. But she can't remember what he looks like without pants. Its an irreconcilable contradiction in thought that only she cannot reconcile, seeing as she's never seen Minmax without pants, but Minmax and Forgath have.


Raza wrote:Her reasoning makes sense, but the fact that that's happening doesn't. Not unless the oblivion holes are affecting memory directly, rather than re-ordering the history that created them.

Which would make them more like amnesia holes, if anything.


The variable here could simply be that the three of them are not in the same room as each group is expected to be. This is what allows Kin to make the deductions that she makes, the fact that they can not observe each other and thereby acquire the visual data to support a new memory of the way things were.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Raza on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:33 am

PostsInForums wrote:The variable here could simply be that the three of them are not in the same room as each group is expected to be. This is what allows Kin to make the deductions that she makes, the fact that they can not observe each other and thereby acquire the visual data to support a new memory of the way things were.

Oi, posts! Sup man. How're the headaches coming?

I don't find it likely that over so many realities our group is the only one currently split up, but it could very well be one of a couple of required conditions which only occurred simultaneously to lead to Kin's deduction in our universe. That doesn't really affect the internal contradictions of retroactive destruction as we see it here, though.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby lukewarm on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:42 am

phurgawtin wrote:in the 1982771 previous times through the maze, if any character had ever been nailed to a wall by Pipemax' ring, that would be a variable that Psymax could have accounted for. I find it unlikely that this situation never occured. There has to be something else about our reality that is keeping them safe.


PsiMax hasn't been through the maze 2 million times. And we don't know how many times PipeMax's group has been through it- they're powerful enough that it may have been their first time, therefore making them an unaccounted variable. Although PsiMax should have known there would be known unknowns.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby WhiteHawk on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:56 am

ChangesEverything wrote:Honestly, Thunt, you'll have to try this in real life: ...

I attempted this and emulated almost two million iterations with the same starting point...

In 21.7% of attempts, I succeeded without issue. In 64.3% of attempts, it took more than ten minutes to untangle myself and I gave up. In 11.8% of attempts, I was killed by a random encounter before I manage to extricate my boot. In 2.1% of attempts, for some reason, I had no trousers or boots so the test was void. In 0.09% of attempts, my boot was spontaneously transmogrified into something small and hairy that attacked my foot then ran away. In 0.01% of attempts, my boot went critical and I was consumed by nuclear fire.

I think it's safe to say that in about two million iterations, it's highly likely that MinMax would have removed his boot without issue at least once. :D :P
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby rollsdirt on Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:21 am

Perhaps the unaccounted variable is that they are still alive. It would seem to be safe to assume they wouldn't be.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby StaysUpTooLate on Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:28 am

:lol: I love Kin! :lol:
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby BinaryTears on Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:33 am

How about that the buckle from MinMax's now non-existent pants, is in that magnifying hole, and has a giant stone 'backup copy' lying on the floor nearby?
How is MinMax going to reconcile his own memory of not having had pants, and seeing that giant buckle, off his own pants?


Actually, the thing that really makes me sad is knowing we won't see any more of Zimmy, the fourth member of our party. She was hot.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Ghyt on Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:39 am

The unaccounted-for variable is STUPIDITY.

Never before have they been snared by Staples. Either that or Minmax never before made the Intelligence Save to throw his belt buckle.

Psimax has been befuddled by Albert Einstein ... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Yes, he has deduced how to make 1 = 0, but how does he make infinity = 0?
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Lowkey on Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:55 am

I think the contradictions are a combination of Kin's extreme intelligence combined with Minmax's extreme stupidity (the group itself is kind of a minmax). As soon as she realized that there was a hole next to Minmax, and he mentioned throwing something in (but certainly not his only boot), she started thinking "Why would a creature with two feet wear only one boot?"

No other group is likely to be in a situation where they will be able (and willing) to experiment with the holes, while simultaneously their Minmax is separated from the group enough to be unsupervised as he hucks his own clothing in. The fact that he's a bipedal mammal who inexplicably only wears one boot doesn't make sense. This confounds Kin momentarily, as does the fact that she's just now finding it odd.

I think kin should try to throw one end of her leash in the hole (or have Forgath finally try casting 'Remove Curse' on it). Let's see how she handles the logical contradiction of experiencing all the tortures of the Goblinslayer...while he held no sway over her.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby DeviousAlpha on Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:09 am

Godbot wrote:It's the power of looooove


LOL I was thinking this.

Then I also thought...

Maybe MinMax has a negative IQ score. And that breaks all the equations.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Ghyt on Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:18 am

DeviousAlpha wrote:
Maybe MinMax has a negative IQ score. And that breaks all the equations.


I disagree. If he had an IQ score below 3, he would not be able to speak Common nor would he be able to specialize in any weapon besides Club. After all, when you are THAT stupid then EVERYTHING (weapon or not) is a Club.
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