12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Elvors on Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:32 am

Being PCs is indeed a factor that Psimax could have overlooked.
See, the multiverse has infinitely many parallel variants of the THuntverse. but in reality, we have only a finite number of D&D sessions that ever happened. So the probability for Psimax to have a PC group in the current version of the MoM is zero.

If that's the explanation, Psimax' mistake was to conflate "zero probability" and "can't happen and does not need to be accounted for".
If you have an infinity of possible outcomes, that's simply not valid reasoning (but easy to overlook unless you know a good deal about probabilities).
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby multilis on Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:06 am

'Psimax' mistake was to conflate "zero probability" and "can't happen and does not need to be accounted for".'
- every action in life has chance to fail. does that mean we should quit trying? Does it mean it is mistake to try?

As we all know failure is suffering, and since everyone must fail sometimes that shows that life is bad. Psi max was only trying to solve their problems by getting rid of failure with the bliss of oblivion.

At the same time, everyone in the maze is being tainted by the snake women. As his Holiness Kore taught us, only thing you can do is wipe them out to stop the evil from spreading.

Psimax is only the logic extension of Kore, rather than wipe out anyone who might be tainted by evil monsters, you simply wipe out everyone, that way taint will never happen.

Holy progress:

1) Goblinslayer saves monsters

2) Kore also saves the tainted

3) Psimax saves everyone for all time.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby StaysUpTooLate on Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:48 am

Krulle wrote:
BinaryTears wrote:Actually, the thing that really makes me sad is knowing we won't see any more of Zimmy, the fourth member of our party. She was hot.

YOU are the unaccounted variable! YOU (and Lunamatic) are apparently the only ones to remember Zimmy...

BTW, IDK about your tastes, but Zimmy is not anywhere near my likings.
But, taste is taste and not a point for discussion.


But she doesn't look the same there as she did here......
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Mithcoriel on Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:44 pm

I don't think Kin and Minmax's love is the variable, cause there are other realities where they're snogging like crazy.

The thing that gets me about the boots is: when he'd thrown just one, it was the perfect logic trap. Why indeed would anyone buy just one boot???
Unfortunately, once he throws the second boot in, any thoughts Kin would have had about that plot hole should disappear. He never wore any boots, so I never wondered why he was wearing only one. For him to be a constantly barefoot person seems plausible enough, unlike the one-boot thing.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby SteveDJ on Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:49 pm

Mithcoriel wrote:I don't think Kin and Minmax's love is the variable, cause there are other realities where they're snogging like crazy.

The thing that gets me about the boots is: when he'd thrown just one, it was the perfect logic trap. Why indeed would anyone buy just one boot???
Unfortunately, once he throws the second boot in, any thoughts Kin would have had about that plot hole should disappear. He never wore any boots, so I never wondered why he was wearing only one. For him to be a constantly barefoot person seems plausible enough, unlike the one-boot thing.


Unless you stop to think "...why would someone enter a dungeon crawl in bare feet???...". Or, we went shopping for clothes in Brassmoon, but didn't buy anything? Hmmm...

Could still be enough logic oddity to trigger at least questioning what might be happening...?
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby currentlyawake on Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:54 pm

phurgawtin wrote:in the 1982771 previous times through the maze, if any character had ever been nailed to a wall by Pipemax' ring, that would be a variable that Psymax could have accounted for. I find it unlikely that this situation never occured. There has to be something else about our reality that is keeping them safe.

What if every previous encounter with pipe-max got them killed? Psi-max can't account for something happening for the first time. Remember that every single run of the maze ends with one team leaving, and another joining (psi-max can't stand at the end zone and kill the winners as that would cause him to win and exit the maze) and thereby every run will have slight changes.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby mnementh on Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:17 pm

StaysUpTooLate wrote:
Krulle wrote:
BinaryTears wrote:Actually, the thing that really makes me sad is knowing we won't see any more of Zimmy, the fourth member of our party. She was hot.

YOU are the unaccounted variable! YOU (and Lunamatic) are apparently the only ones to remember Zimmy...

BTW, IDK about your tastes, but Zimmy is not anywhere near my likings.
But, taste is taste and not a point for discussion.


But she doesn't look the same there as she did here......

I remember her... and there's this bartender at the Commodore Hotel who who said he knew her well.
As he handed me a drink he began to hum a song; and all the boys there at the bar began to sing along... ;)

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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby gameboy1234 on Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:17 pm

I have to posit what the "unaccounted variable" is. I don't think it's Kim.

I think that like nature abhors a vacuum, nature also abhors a pantsless Minmax. Given the possibility of Minmax removing any more articles of clothing, instead it's decided that 1 = 0 is ok and we can just all stop there.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby mnementh on Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:21 pm

currentlyawake wrote: Remember that every single run of the maze ends with one team leaving, and another joining (psi-max can't stand at the end zone and kill the winners as that would cause him to win and exit the maze) and thereby every run will have slight changes.

No; there will be a certain number of runs (quite a few, I imagine) in which all participants are either killed by the traps or are incapacitated and die of... not being able to get anywhere. Those would ALSO force a reset. ;)

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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Digitality on Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:35 pm

Daize wrote:
MrAsmodeus wrote:It would seem that if anything Kin realized that most people would not just buy and wear one boot when you have two feet. Or.. you can't interrupt/rewrite a thought already in progress.

The whole thing about targeting the individual players with holes just doesn't jibe tho. he wants to obliterate himself and his fellow teammates, destroying reality is the means to an end, not the actual tool, so to speak. He's not pulling the rug out from underneath them, he's vaporizing the whole house.

Thing is, PsiMax noticed the fault before kin started thinking. I agree with you on the targetting players. Nice metaphor. This would also rule out the "they're pinned to the wall" argument by the way.


There is no frame of timing for reference here for you to be so definitive. The way it pans out he could be "looking in" to see what the problem is, and that cuts away to our FMK showing the process.

Fulongamer wrote:Please....

The "variable" is that unlike all the other "realities", THIS reality is populated by the actual FMK PCs under the control of Player. Unless you just want to have a DM Herbert Snit-Fit and declare rocks fall, everybody dies (substituting Psy-Max's oblivion plan for "rocks fall") the PCs HAVE to be able to affect the outcome, and merely by existing they are the wrench in the works, as it were.

Psy-Max is attempting to solve his oblivion equation without accounting for the ultimate representation of Chaos Theory. (Players and their Characters)

DMs, Players, you know who you are, and you know who they are. Can I get an AMEN from the congrgation?


And a good DM would weave the means to that end into the story somehow. Not just say "you are the PCs you are unaffected." People have theorized that Kin is a DMPC in the past. That would make her the perfect tool in this instance to allow for the PCs to survive the initial barrage of nothingness so that they may then attempt to intervene or at least escape.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby TheExorcist on Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:47 pm

I still think its their turn.

Why?
This is all happening inside a godling's discarded tool.
The Gods are up to a kinky little experiment in reality #156, and these critters are a key part of that experiment.
Never heard of a god that gave a crap about physics.

Jeez, I'm getting off this theoretical train before I can get comfortable.
I'm starting to suspect that every one of us would be mincemeat in a Dungeon like that one...
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Triskavanski on Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:27 pm

My theory..

Goblins. Remember someone poofs in just as Chief gets killed and that crazy paladin guy is getting ready to slay the rest of the goblins. May very well be possible that FMK port in just at that time, and decide to save the goblins because something the goblins did saved them from being oblivionated. Also F is prophesied to be killed by the crazy paladin guy.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Brady Kj on Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:48 pm

I' was sure the variable is just that someone's throwing his boots and pants into the hole. Kin of course realizes that she's now just finding it weird. However, I now concede that the variable might be the gigantic belt buckle.

As far as conjecture about what the oblivion erases, I'm assuming it erases aspects of the history of this reality, but is not powerful enough to erase other realities.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Krais101 on Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:54 pm

Minmax traded in his ability to be erased from existence for "Weapon Proficiency: Person".
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby twocoo on Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:32 am

Krais101 wrote:Minmax traded in his ability to be erased from existence for "Weapon Proficiency: Person".


That sounds like an advantage traded for an advantage.

I'm inclined to think the answer is that Minmax is too stupid to exist, hence too stupid to be wiped out of existence.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Halfwrong on Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:01 am

Sudden thought I just had, may have already been thought of but:

While Psimax attempts to remove the anomaly, he may accidentally remove the (fairly crushed) ring that is currently binding all three of them to the walls from existence and hence free them.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby Elvors on Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:17 am

Hm... I don't think Psimax can simply move the obliviation holes around as he pleases; if he could, he's simply carry on instead of investigating the problem.

That said, I did call Ringmax being obliviated and the neck staples vanish.
On second thinking, I don't think that would work - the Ring group would have been without a neck staple ring, changing the outcome of the whole encounter. That would undo a whole lot of plot that we already have seen, and it would be a pity to lose those epic wins of the FMK group against the ring group.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby JonathanA on Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:00 am

madkitty wrote:I was thinking, though this probably isn't it. But if they went there specificially for "the jade teapot" and it was wiped from existance, then that would change the very course of their lives and they would never enter the maze.


I was also wondering about the jade teapot. If the jade teapot is in the maze then the maze may not be as isolated as PsiMax thought. The only reason he was able to "catalogue all key variables" is because the maze represented a "tiny pocket dimension" isolated from the multiverse at large. If the teapot can only teleport people from the maze to reality #156 (presumably it's home reality), and if it's the only teapot in the maze, then it represents "an unaccounted variable regarding reality #156".

If so, then the only way for PsiMax to complete his plan is to remove the teapot from the maze. If destroying it would not work because destruction is not the same as oblivion, then maybe our heroes can volunteer to remove it for him.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby feline256 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:40 pm

MetaDude wrote:
knucklekraken wrote:How about this.

Kin has never seen Minmax wearing pants.
Kin just got out of a rape/torture situation and is having trouble adjusting to physical contact.
Kin still travels with Minmax even though he wears no pants, which would be quite likely to trigger PTSD-style craziness in Kin.
This has not happened.
In fact, she sort of likes him.
Something does not compute.

This +1. There is no way Kin would have traveled with a pantsless human, and she knows this.

That's what I was thinking. She's realizing their memories don't add up to reality since she certainly would have had a reaction to his pantslessness.
I wonder if this was an intelligence roll.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby ming on Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:26 pm

necrule wrote:I guess this is where PsiMax becomes an enemy of our FMK directly. Why bother figuring out the variable when you can just kill the variable.



Killing the variable likely wouldn't do it. . .he's more likely to have to help the variable win (and thus get out of the maze).
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby DragonStryk72 on Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:24 pm

I still think it's the power of stupid that protects them. Minmax is literally so stupid that he would chuck his own gear in just to see if anything happens, while Kin is so intelligent that she can actually interpret his stupidity into something useful to the situation.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby twocoo on Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:32 pm

feline256 wrote:
MetaDude wrote:
knucklekraken wrote:How about this.

Kin has never seen Minmax wearing pants.
Kin just got out of a rape/torture situation and is having trouble adjusting to physical contact.
Kin still travels with Minmax even though he wears no pants, which would be quite likely to trigger PTSD-style craziness in Kin.
This has not happened.
In fact, she sort of likes him.
Something does not compute.

This +1. There is no way Kin would have traveled with a pantsless human, and she knows this.

That's what I was thinking. She's realizing their memories don't add up to reality since she certainly would have had a reaction to his pantslessness.
I wonder if this was an intelligence roll.


In which case they would have stopped somewhere and gotten him a different pair of pants, and Minmax would have chucked those into the hole instead, right?

It's pretty hard to play this game because as pointed out earlier if Inkmax had never existed it's unlikely that Forgath-2 and Kin-2 would have ended up at this particular spot in the Maze of Many anyhow. One theory thrown around in these sorts of mind-benders is that reality is a sort of lowest energy state and that changes to reality tend to correct themselves into something as close as possible to the original reality anyhow. But if she's figured it out then there must be some sort anomaly that represents influence of the now missing boots and pants on the current reality, right? So Psimax failed, I guess.
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby thinkslogically on Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:11 am

Personally, I think the details of the entire maze are too chaotic to be predicted and it's most likely that there's a fundamental difference happening with our MFK group that couldn't have been predicted. I stand by my original thoughts that the anomaly is Kin becoming aware of the oblivion holes. Now they know what they are, they can alter their behaviours to actively avoid them (whereas no other FMKs are in a situation which allows this realisation).

Also, if they 'know' that it's oblivion, can it really be 'oblivion' any more since they've imagined something inside those holes?
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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby mnementh on Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:54 am

DragonStryk72 wrote:I still think it's the power of stupid that protects them. Minmax is literally so stupid that he would chuck his own gear in just to see if anything happens, while Kin is so intelligent that she can actually interpret his stupidity into something useful to the situation.

I was thinking along similar lines; that the huge imbalance of intellect between those two would have to be a massive force in the equation. We all know how equations move inexorably towards balance. :o

But it WILL be sweet when they get together and have perfectly normal Kobold babies. ;)

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Re: 12/13/11 "An Unaccounted Variable"

Postby askstoomuch on Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:01 am

maby a stupid thought but i just need to share it if its a oblivion hole and everything that fall in it get forgotten heck it never even exited what about the stone that was their before the hole appared do they remember that it seems as the do cus the mentioned the hole apparing..imthinking im nithpicking this a liitle bit to much :D
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