Haiti

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Haiti

Postby Dave.gillam on Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:31 am

Given the problems of our economy, the massive (and still growing) deficit, the two war fronts, the fact that we've had to deploy troops to Haiti several times to help "stabilize" their govt, the fact that Haiti is almost a dictatorship as explained here, the recent coup, etc
Are we really in a position to send a carrier group and joint task force, as well as millions of (devalu-ating) US Dollars there?
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Re: Haiti

Postby VictorK on Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:46 am

A city of three million people in the poorest country in the western hemisphere was just flattened on the doorstep of the world's wealthiest. To not send aid would be criminal. It's not like the carrier group was really up to much. We have a few to spare.

But that's for staying in the vein of classy conservative responses, Dave.
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Re: Haiti

Postby Casual Notice on Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:02 am

Most of the people homeless and starving in Port-Au-Prince right now were homeless and starving on Monday, but your oh-so-humanitarian Democratic Congress never seemed to notice. Without dancing on any graves, all the earthquake has done is provide a few luminaries and the usual Hollywood suspects with an opportunity for a few photo-ops and sound bytes. In a month, when the public has forgotten and the funds have been sucked intot he black hole of the Haitian government, where will all those poor people be?

I agree that it would be inhuman not to help. I don't think that just throwing money and short-term aid at them is any real help.
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Re: Haiti

Postby Dave.gillam on Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:36 am

Casual Notice wrote:I agree that it would be inhuman not to help. I don't think that just throwing money and short-term aid at them is any real help.

Agreed.
You still have an EXTREMELY corrupt authoritarian "democracy" thats going to pocket the aid. Plus, imaginary money is far less useful that real food and real medical supplies, neither of which a carrier doesnt carry much of. Better to send the USNS Mercy or Comfort. Or Supply Ships like the USNS Supply and Rainier. Plus, considering the looting that will inevitably erupt, we're gonna need security troops, another thing you dont find much of on a carrier. By thier design, carriers are of VERY limited use anywhere you dont intend to have aerial combat. Its a photo-op, not real aid. Are we really in a position to waste resources on photo-ops? Much better to send USEFUL assistance, like the AF para-jumpers with their emergency air towers.

We're misusing troops, supplies and equipment, spending money we dont have, and not sending much of actual use
To prop up a dictatorship (the Obama standard, I guess) that wont use it to alleviate any of the suffering, nor do anything engineering-wise to prevent this tragedy from happening again
So that politicians and Hollywood actors can get a photo-op
While Americans are becoming just as homeless and starving (but at least they're not dead, right?)
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Re: Haiti

Postby carsonfire on Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:38 pm

This is one of those rare times I'm in complete agreement with VK. We sent ships in quickly to help with similar disasters under Bush, and we should do so now. It is our duty, as long as we are able to do so.

However -- this comes back to the idea of the bankruptcy of liberalism. The reason that we have the resources to do such work at all is thanks to the wealth derived from capitalism and a healthy economy. Liberals who have accepted the worst aspects of leftist ideology, and expanding on the worst of Bush's "compassionate conservatism", are in the process of bankrupting us. One year of Obama has been a disaster. Ten years of such misguided governance, and we will no longer have these resources to offer.

VK, you have to understand that isolationism is a different kind of animal than conservatism and liberalism. We have plenty of isolationists on both sides. As far as I'm concerned, the Democrat party's war against "outsourcing" is not far removed from Dave's concern here: you are angry at sharing wealth with other nations unless it's on your terms.

I'm against both kinds of isolationism. We should do business with other nations, like India, and help them to become wealthy; in turn, those nations will share the responsibility when tragedies like this happen. But we also need to do more work to prevent the numerous failed socialist states to prop themselves up by constantly seizing aid from the US meant for the victims of socialism.

Letting left wing dictators steal aid is as bad as not sending aid at all, but this is the left's more particular sin. The difference is that while Dave is at least honest, the left pretends that they are being humanitarian when they are taking part in a shell game.
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Re: Haiti

Postby VictorK on Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:11 pm

carsonfire wrote:VK, you have to understand that isolationism is a different kind of animal than conservatism and liberalism. We have plenty of isolationists on both sides. As far as I'm concerned, the Democrat party's war against "outsourcing" is not far removed from Dave's concern here: you are angry at sharing wealth with other nations unless it's on your terms.


I don't mean to suggest that there's anything about the conservative ideology which mandates being opposed to sending aid to Haiti of the kind which is currently underway. Just as I would not paint all Christians whose church groups across the country do good work every day and rise to the occasion during crises like these with the odious statements of Pat Robertson on this issue, conservatives are fully capable of doing the right thing without compromising one iota of their ideology.

Letting left wing dictators steal aid is as bad as not sending aid at all, but this is the left's more particular sin. The difference is that while Dave is at least honest, the left pretends that they are being humanitarian when they are taking part in a shell game.


The left is being unambiguously humanitarian in this case. Are you arguing that the aid is some kind of stealth aid to a failed government, simply because they may (probably by virtue of being a dictator, right wing dictators seem to have fallen out of the conservative lexicon) be said by some to lean "left"? Domestic politics aside, I'm not calling into questions the motive of anyone who is offering aid, unlike Rush.

As for the ability to pay or the appropriateness of the aid...No one is suggesting that Haiti doesn't need more systemic help, but there's only so much that can be done and I don't think it's fair to say that the United States, under any administration or party, forgets Haiti in proportion to any other state. This is an acute crisis that requires this kind of response.
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Re: Haiti

Postby carsonfire on Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:37 pm

VictorK wrote:The left is being unambiguously humanitarian in this case.


Please, VK -- correction. When we sent ships and resources for aid under similar circumstances, the credit goes to neither George W Bush singly, or Republicans, or conservatives. When we undertake the same mission now, it is similarly the American people doing so, not the right or left.

VictorK wrote:Are you arguing that the aid is some kind of stealth aid to a failed government


Not *this* aid, certainly. And while the intention may not be to send aid to socialist governments, if you find out that's happening and keep on doing it anyway, then you have to take some responsibility for letting down the people you intend to help.

Maybe you're thinking that's specifically a criticism of the left. I mean that as a critique of us all as potential suckers.
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Re: Haiti

Postby Dave.gillam on Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:47 pm

It may be isolationism, but with all the homeless and soon-to-be-homeless in our country, the families starving in the land of plenty, the lack of medical care the birthed this farce of "universal" healthcare debate, shouldnt we focus on ensuring our ability to continue providing such generous amounts of aid?
You dont go fix your neighbor's roof when your own is leaking.

Secondly, if we're really interested in helping, shouldnt we send something that will actually help? Sending a carrier to earthquake victims is like taking the French with you to war, or bringing an accordion deer hunting. You dont use a screwdriver to pound nails, you dont use a hammer to cut boards, why send a combat aircraft support platform for disaster relief?
We could have sent engineers, sea-bees; the Air Force specializes in support missions, there are several Naval bases in Florida full of men and supplies far more suited to disaster relief just sitting around with nothing to do, and the "old" decommissioned ships would get to Haiti just as fast and easily as a carrier.But we see from Obama, yet again, that image is more important than substance; photo-ops outrank useful aid.
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Re: Haiti

Postby VictorK on Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:09 pm

carsonfire wrote:Please, VK -- correction. When we sent ships and resources for aid under similar circumstances, the credit goes to neither George W Bush singly, or Republicans, or conservatives. When we undertake the same mission now, it is similarly the American people doing so, not the right or left.


My only point is that the segment of the American people who identify as the left are also being humanitarian.
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Re: Haiti

Postby carsonfire on Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:17 pm

OK.

Meanwhile, we do also have the usual competitiveness between the right and the left on who can provide us with the stupidest response to a disaster like this. While Pat Robertson repeats his usual idiocy about this being God's punishment, some on the left are out there (just like last time, iirc) saying this is our punishment for Global Warming:

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph ... with_gaia/
Says [Danny] Glover: “When we see what we did at the climate summit in Copenhagen, this is the response, this is what happens, you know what I’m sayin’?” His obscene opinion would be bigger news if Glover had – in the manner of others – idiotically blamed a less-fashionable deity.


Idiocy is bi-partisan.
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Re: Haiti

Postby carsonfire on Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:19 am

The virulent hate of the ignorant...

If you can stand it, here's a gang of leftist/Democrats raging about how they could do so much better than the emergency workers who are actually on the ground having to deal with the death and destruction firsthand.

http://www.democraticunderground.com//d ... 89x7477356

I don't have to answer them, because there are plenty of other Democrats who answer back. I wish more Democrats would recognize how this mindset infects a lot of the leftist ideology. If you don't understand, for example, how some well-meaning tax policy or aid can actually do more harm than good, you will simply rage with anger at the people you disagree with -- instead of analyzing your own failure to think things through.
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Re: Haiti

Postby Dave.gillam on Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:52 pm

Yay! The USNS Mercy finally hit port, stocked with enough medical supplies to actually be of use to the Haitians. As the victims[ themselves said, medicine food and water were much more important than troops. Im hoping that after the 6.something "aftershock" (more of a second earthquake, imo) there are still survivors to help.
The victims dont need money, nor celebrities and politicians seeking photo-ops. They started today getting real support from the US, as we finally got the needed items to them. Ironically, the 12 helicopters assigned to the carrier that were justification for its deployment are proving woefully insufficient, (no surprise to disaster coordinators) and other nations in the area (and civilians) are taking up the load to help airlift from Mercy to the shore. The AF para-jumpers had the airport functional, if not pretty, within 12 hours, providing ATC and Tower duties to see the necessary off-loading. Our govt may have screwed up, but the military is stepping up to cover for it, and showing our willingness and ability to alleviate suffering.
Rummor-mill (for what its worth) has that within the month, after initial disaster relief efforts finish, one of the supply ships and a Sea-Bee "floating miracle shop" (a factory/machinist shop/ floating construction company) is to head out at high speed to help rebuilding efforts.
It IS disturbing that, while relief donations started almost as soon as word got out of what happened, in under 12 hours, we already had scam artists committing fraud, claiming to collect aid, while pocketing it. And, like several other disasters of this decade, the money isnt being watched closely to prevent abuse, waste, and embezzlement :( It seems no tragedy can be inflicted that our fellow man cant make even worse.
I still maintain that the initial response of a carrier, for visible sign of support but of little use, and (weak) US dollars were useless to send. Better to have kept them here, where they are of use. But the Navy and Air Force are making up for bureaucratic stupidity with their common sense, and finding/providing what IS needed. And doing so in a way that will profit the victims not the corrupt govt.
We see again that our military is more competent than our government.
My prayers for the suffering Hatians
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