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Nimelennar wrote:The Recluse series, by L. E. Modesitt Jr.
Grim Atescu wrote:HamHam, I have to ask if you're a realist (in the non-philosophical sense of the word) and/or historian. You just seem to be arguing from that angle; according to history, bringing up practicality and reality, seeming to favor more realistic arguments, etc.
GetsLonely wrote:There was a time I got afraid of the ideas books could be putting into my head. I wondered "what if all of my thoughts and ideals are molded solely by what I read?" and then the even scarier though: "what if I'll believe any principle a book will tell me because the author was clever enough to fit it with an example in the story, and to make it sound reasonable?" But then I read a few more books, and realized I disagreed with an author's views more often than I thought I had, and the scare was over. Kind of an empowering moment. "Hey, I disagree with this! Allright!"
VOR wrote:I worry that Jordan will pull a Herbert on us and die before he can finish the thing...
VOR wrote:It's not just sacrificing their life. It's LIVING for it, too. And I'm willin' to argue that the most human thing about humanity is pretty well described there. That's LOVE, right there. How great you are is determined by what you love, whichever character says that contends. I can live with that.
Ambi wrote:VOR wrote:It's not just sacrificing their life. It's LIVING for it, too. And I'm willin' to argue that the most human thing about humanity is pretty well described there. That's LOVE, right there. How great you are is determined by what you love, whichever character says that contends. I can live with that.
Sorry, I didn't ask what people *want* it to mean, I wanted to know in what context it was said in the novel. Depending on context it can mean several things, one that you describe, and another that tells me I'm not a human being, while the terrorist who makes a suicide attack for his cause is one.
VOR wrote:Since it was just mentioned, I'll recommend Pullman's trilogy, starting with The Golden Compass, then continuing with The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass. They're kinda like the Anti-Narnia. Plenty of religious symbolism, and the books do have a subtext to 'em (a subtext which can offend people, sometimes, but one which makes you think), but the story is beatiful and entertaining in and of itself. The characters are well written, and the kids mature as the series progresses.
Robert Jordan: His books are popular, and they're still coming out, so I'll say a bit on 'em. They're good books. They're a massive epic, and the world is detailed. The characters are good, the magic is fascinating, and the bad guys are actually BAD (I like my evil to be smart, motivated, non-standard-issue evil). That said, the books are MASSIVE. There are dozens of minor characters who are introduced and who the reader is expected to remember two books later when they pop up again. This makes the books feel much more continuous, but it can also make them overwhelming. I have to be in the right mood to sit down and read them. I worry that Jordan will pull a Herbert on us and die before he can finish the thing...
Speaking of Herbert: Dune. Hasn't been mentioned yet. Dune is a work of art, and it's one of the classics (I like a lot of the classics) that everyone should be familiar with. There's a series, which Herbert died just before finishing, but the books get worse with each passing novel. The first one stands alone, though, and should be taken as a meal by itself. You can get the series if you want. Read 'em once, then use 'em as doorstops. Or Christmas gifts to family members you don't really like.
Snowcrash: I like Diamond Age better. That is all...well, not quite all. YAY ISLANDS BUILT OF NANOBOTS! WOO!
HamHam wrote:VOR wrote:Since it was just mentioned, I'll recommend Pullman's trilogy, starting with The Golden Compass, then continuing with The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass. They're kinda like the Anti-Narnia. Plenty of religious symbolism, and the books do have a subtext to 'em (a subtext which can offend people, sometimes, but one which makes you think), but the story is beatiful and entertaining in and of itself. The characters are well written, and the kids mature as the series progresses.
Anti-Narnia... I like that description. The only real fault I had with His Dark Materials was then end seemed really contrived.
HamHam wrote:Which is strange considering Nell has a lot in common with Ender, one of my favorite characters ever... however I guess I prefer Ender to Nell because he's more human and on the other side of the spectrum Peter is just cooler. Or something.
ravenb wrote:To put it mildly, yes.I found The Amber Spyglass to be very disappointing, after following the first two books with interest. I would say that Pullman let his story be subverted by his ideology; the whole thing becomes annoyingly preachy in Book 3. I felt that he could probably have made his point through metaphor if he had stayed in a fantasy setting; it would have fit the style of story-telling better and probably been far less obnoxious. Unfortunately, when he let the "real" world and the Christian religion become part of the story, his vehement opposition to Christianity caused him to derail the narrative for the sake of attacking what he believes Christianity to be. (I don't want to set off another debate here, so I'll just say that -- as one who knows the religion intimately, and is aware with both its virtues and its flaws -- I found that he had a number of crucial, tragic and fundamental misunderstandings about the essential nature and character of the faith, and these misunderstandings made his ex-nun character utterly unbelievable.)
In essence, I think Pullman was guilty of the same crime as many political and religious novelists: that of sacrificing good fiction on the altar of indoctrination. (I've read some bad Christian fiction that is like this, so I know it goes both ways.)
<grin> There's one thing we can agree on, anyway. The Ender series is one of the best I've ever read, and Speaker for the Dead probably impacted me on a personal level more than any book other than the Bible itself (though The Worthing Saga is a close second).
HamHam wrote:Actually, I was talking about the resolution of the "romance" side of the stroy. As extremely anti-Christian myself I have no problem with some good Catholic bashing.
VOR wrote:Now, now, Squato. Don't go startin' another war, k? HamHam's shown itself to be a pretty openminded, nonflamy individual, even if he occasionally has controversial views.
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