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PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 12:11 am
by Psiogen
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Josh Phillips:
<B> But even if it was *okay* to make fun of gays nowadays, you should *know* you're going to offend people. So either you *want* to offend people (and you're therefore an asshole), or you're due one learning experience.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nothing wrong with being offensive. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/biggrin.gif">
If you're not offending anyone, you can't being saying anything very interesting.
The kind of thing that bothers me more is people using "gay" or "faggot" as a schoolyard-type insult. Some people need to have their foot stuck in a blender for their own good.<P>------------------
Sylvan
Read <B><A HREF="http://spork.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Spork</A></B>, the only comic proven to be severely damaging the fabric of the universe.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 12:16 am
by Josh Phillips
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psiogen:
<B> Nothing wrong with being offensive. :D
If you're not offending anyone, you can't being saying anything very interesting.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I disagree completely. :-)<P><SMALL>(So... how 'bout that local sports team?)</SMALL>
JOSH.<P>------------------
Josh Phillips - <A HREF="mailto:josh@avalonhigh.com">josh@avalonhigh.com</A>
Avalon - <A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.avalonhigh.com</A>

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 12:30 am
by RJ Shep
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TeleGib:
<B>The only reason I say that I wouldn't show Joe's restraint in the same situation is that I don't think I was quite so mature at that age that Joe is...
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Heh! I was so socially inept at Joe's age that
A) I never would get in a situation like that, and
2) I would have melted down into a protoplasmic goo if I had seen female breasts outside of print or videotape <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>Josh, I don't think it is wrong to take a stand on something you feel strongly about. And the stock response "uh, just kidding" is one I hear all the time when I object to someone making racist remarks about Hispanics. (I am anglo, BTW)

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 12:46 am
by Pauline Hewitt
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psiogen:
<B> Nothing wrong with being offensive. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/biggrin.gif">
If you're not offending anyone, you can't being saying anything very interesting.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Even with the smiley that deserves a slap.
If you have something worth saying and you can't make it interesting without using cheap trick then, in hind sight, you were wrong about it being worth saying.<P>As to Joe's sexuality: he's doing OK so far by me. He makes more sense than most of the guys I know but I hope that just means that I haven't met enough guys yet. I used to think he was a bit childish but under pressure he seems to be delivering the goods.<P>Fight your corner for reasonable thinking Josh, and don't feel too bad about stomping down on those that go too far.<P>PJH

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 12:52 am
by Quattro
I sort of find it funny that it's usually GUYS who are trying to get a girl in bed, and this time around it's a GIRL who's trying to get a guy in bed. It's pantented Josh twistiness I guess.<P>And honestly, it's people like those who think Joe is gay that give guys a bad name. I mean, there's plenty of us nice guys right?<P>Dan
<P>------------------
<A HREF="http://heroes.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>HEROES - We're the guys you call when Superman's not around.</A>

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:02 am
by RJ Shep
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quattro:
<B>I sort of find it funny that it's usually GUYS who are trying to get a girl in bed, and this time around it's a GIRL who's trying to get a guy in bed...
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What I think is kinda funny (and a little wierd & creepy), is that J+C's dating history is very similar to that of mine and my wife's... right up to the "STOP!" that is... <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif">

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:03 am
by Q99
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quattro:
<B>I sort of find it funny that it's usually GUYS who are trying to get a girl in bed, and this time around it's a GIRL who's trying to get a guy in bed. It's pantented Josh twistiness I guess.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's not real twistiness , only to people who are caught up in that stereotype , which I don't think Josh is in.<P>I think it's just good storytelling built upon previous plotting.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:33 am
by missiepiebald
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zippthorn:
<B> Who are these people, that we may make fun of them mercilessly?<P>Zippthorn<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree heartily.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 1:57 am
by David Adrian
Okay, I've had half a shift to think about it, and I'm no longer speechless. (No, wait. That isn't even the BAD news!) So here goes... But first...<P>WARNINGWARNINGWARNINGWARNINGWARNINGWARNING<P>WHAT FOLLOWS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION. I FEEL VERY STRONGLY ABOUT THIS, AND WHAT I SAY MAY, AND PROBABLY WILL, OFFEND THOSE WHO ARE HYPERSENSITIVE. THINK ABOUT IT, AND IF YOU DECIDE I'M WRONG, FIND AN AMERICAN CRIMINAL LIBERTIES UNION DISHRAG TO CRY ON. Thank you.<P>[Rant Mode: ON]<P>Taking sexual advantage of a person while their reason is incapacitated by emotion is RAPE, pure and evil. It makes no difference whether or not the victim recognizes it as rape, then or later. To me, this is a worse class of crime than non-sexual assault, theft, or even murder. Rape is the most heinous crime I can think of. The thought alone is so repulsive as to make me nauseous, and I hardly think I'm alone in this.<P>At some level, Joe recognizes this, and cannot tolerate the thought of such an action. For this, he should be lauded, not libeled.<P>Do not think that this is a statement against premarital sex: as I've posted elsewhere, I have... unconventional viewpoints on that issue. Nor is this about 'statutory rape'. That phrase is, to me, the third most rediculous circumlocution the legal profession has ever produced, right behind (2) pornography and (1) indecent exposure. The issue that raises my ire is just what I've stated: taking advantage of a person who is not capable of defending themself, and taking the opportunity to twist something that should be the most wonderful thing in the world into an act of enslavement.<P>Joe may not have the words (yet), but emotionally he understands everything that I am stating and implying here. He recognizes the situation for what it is, and he is refusing to take that first step down the road to owning another human being. For this, he is being slandered by certain moral slugs (apologies to the arthropods). I'm sorry, but I won't condone that.<P>I've been in this situation, and I chose the road Joe is taking. I paid the same price that Joe is paying (the moral vegetables existed back then, too), and you know what? It was worth it. I'd do it again. <P>So let the creeps keep their anonymity. But know this: anyone who can think about what's happening in the strip, consider what Joe has chosen, and still honestly and seriously think that Joe deserves contempt for his choice, has forfeited their right to be a human being. They might walk upright, they might be articulate, they might even be house-broken, but ultimately, they're feral animals - not socialized enough to be trusted, and not natural enough to survive on their own.<P>[Rant Mode: OFF]<P>Any questions?

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 9:22 am
by Josh Phillips
I just wrote a relatively scathing reply to an avid reader's e-mail a few minutes ago, which makes me rather dismayed... I've always appreciated peoples' readership, and I've tried to reflect that as much as possible in my responses. But this has just gone too far...<P>I have received at least three individual comments that, because Joe hasn'had sex with Ceilidh yet, that Joe must be gay. I am *unnaturally* offended by this mentality (not just the comments, but the *thinking* that's going on behind them). First of all, these people are obviously homphobic, and are equating homosexuality with an inability to perform proper functions (like raping a girl, apparently).<P>And secondly, these people obviously don't understand the basics of *respect* or care due to other people. I'm hoping it's just some kind of hormonal urge that would drive these commenters to ignore Ceilidh's feelings and take advantage of her, because if they'd do it with full clarity of thought and self-control, I don't know what I'd do to them if we passed in the street.<P>If anyone reads this who was thinking about making such comments... *DON'T*. The easiest thing is not to make yourself look stupid. But the more important thing is that, if you honestly think that Joe is gay because he's not having sex with Ceilidh right now, <B>you do not have a healthy grasp of reality</B>. Try going outside and talking to people, expand your horizons a bit. Discover the wonder of things that *aren't* sexual in nature.<P>I apologize to anyone who didn't need to hear this, but I do feel much better about being mean to people who are just plain wrong.<P>JOSH.<P>------------------
Josh Phillips - <A HREF="mailto:josh@avalonhigh.com">josh@avalonhigh.com</A>
Avalon - <A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.avalonhigh.com</A>

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 9:44 am
by David Adrian
BRAVO, JOSH!<P>Darn it, you've expressed my feelings so well, I'm stuck for something to say.<P>(*salutes Josh*)

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 9:46 am
by Fragged One
/me stands at full attention, holding his salute.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 9:50 am
by Fool
I've hinted at that myself, but it was on a different track and had nothing to do with events in the comic.
It was also meant to be purely in fun.<P>
Like anyone ever takes anything I say seriously.<P>*sulk*

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 9:52 am
by Fragged One
It's ok, Fool, I know when to take you seriously...

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 10:03 am
by zippthorn
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Josh Phillips:
<B>I have received at least three individual comments that, because Joe hasn'had sex with Ceilidh yet, that Joe must be gay.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Who are these people, that we may make fun of them mercilessly?<P>Zippthorn<P>------------------
--
I don't want genital herpes to interfere with *my* social life.<P><A HREF="http://delinquents.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>Sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll</A>

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 10:49 am
by K. Ivan Ruppert
Whaaaaaaaaat? <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/eek.gif"><P>I'm with Zippthorn, here. These people should be pointed at and laughed at. Still, I wouldn't blame Josh for not disclosing the names...<P>-K
<P>------------------
K. Ivan Ruppert - <A HREF="mailto:kiruppert@hotmail.com">kiruppert@hotmail.com</A> Amateur Artist, Professional Pervert :D<P>1000 Posts in 10 months!(<I>GOD, I need a life!</I>)<P>Hand-poked by <A HREF="http://www.crfh.net" TARGET=_blank>Maritza Campos</A> Herself!<P><I>(Psst. Wanna know what my <A HREF="http://www.funnyfarmcomics.com" TARGET=_blank>favorite comic</A> is?)
(Or maybe my <A HREF="http://www.itswalky.com" TARGET=_blank>Other favorite</A>?)</I>

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 10:55 am
by TeleGib
Where do some people come up with this junk about Joe being gay? That's bad on two levels -- it assumes that any guy who doesn't look at a girl's parts when she's naked is gay, and also that straight guys can't look at girls' faces.<P>Way to tell 'em, Josh!<P>------------------
What we do best is
what's best not to do.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 11:08 am
by Josh Phillips
Well, now I feel bad because of the insulting nature of my response (like you see above, and what I wrote in e-mail). To me, an accusation is only insulting if its false.<P>In the case where I responded to the person via e-mail (the other two I ignored), I told the guy he appeared to be a homophobe, and that that was very bad. He responded to emphasize "it was just a joke." I feel bad that I insulted him, if he really isn't homophobic or anti-gay or whathaveyou.<P>But still, I find the jokes disgusting, and that they bely a dangerous mentality. There used to be a time where you could make gay jokes (or derogatory comments based on sexual orientation) and get a laugh every time. But even if it was *okay* to make fun of gays nowadays, you should *know* you're going to offend people. So either you *want* to offend people (and you're therefore an asshole), or you're due one learning experience.<P>Anyways, the venting continues, I guess. :-)<P>JOSH.<P>------------------
Josh Phillips - <A HREF="mailto:josh@avalonhigh.com">josh@avalonhigh.com</A>
Avalon - <A HREF="http://www.avalonhigh.com" TARGET=_blank>http://www.avalonhigh.com</A>

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 11:37 am
by Quattro
Funny how you should mention making jokes about gay people. Apparently in the new Kevin Smith film, Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, he makes a couple remarks about gay people and now has some gay protestors after him.<P>Apparently Smith is completely baffled with this because in the movie he makes fun of EVERYBODY. I mean, if you make fun of everybody, surely it means that it's nothing to be taken too seriously. But alas, he seems to have gotten himself in trouble...again...<P>Dan
<P>------------------
<A HREF="http://heroes.keenspace.com" TARGET=_blank>HEROES - We're the guys you call when Superman's not around.</A>

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 11:48 am
by Winkie
There's more to this than homophobia. Or do I mean less? What I mean is that calling Joe gay seems to me more likely to stem from insecurity about one's own sense of self-control. We look at the situation and wonder, "Would I show as much restraint as Joe in a similar situation?" To a reader whose answer is "no", it is reassuring to continue "...but that doesn't reflect badly on me, because no one else would either, unless they just aren't interested in girls."

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2001 11:51 am
by TeleGib
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Winkie:
<B>There's more to this than homophobia. Or do I mean less? What I mean is that calling Joe gay seems to me more likely to stem from insecurity about one's own sense of self-control. We look at the situation and wonder, "Would I show as much restraint as Joe in a similar situation?" To a reader whose answer is "no", it is reassuring to continue "...but that doesn't reflect badly on me, because no one else would either, unless they just aren't interested in girls."</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Absolutely.right on. The only reason I say that I wouldn't show Joe's restraint in the same situation is that I don't think I was quite so mature at that age that Joe is at (yeah, for me it's only a couple of years later, but it makes all the difference.)
<P>------------------
What we do best is
what's best not to do.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2001 1:31 am
by NaKaithus
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Josh Phillips:
<B>I disagree completely. :-)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And I agree with that. I've found, however, that creating something that's universally loved and enjoyed is so difficult and so rare that many people tend to doubt that the possibility that it *could* happen even exists.<P>As if that made any sense...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><SMALL>(So... how 'bout that local sports team?)</SMALL></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><SMALL>My local sports team is the Carolina Hurricanes. Need I say more?</SMALL><P>Nak
<P>------------------
<A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/weird/atcproject" TARGET=_blank>The Alternative Title Card Project.</A> Now Open.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2001 2:08 am
by RJ Shep
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Adrian:
<B>Rape is the most heinous crime I can think of. The thought alone is so repulsive as to make me nauseous, and I hardly think I'm alone in this.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You're not. As the father of a daughter, this possibility terrifies me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Do not think that this is a statement against premarital sex: as I've posted elsewhere, I have... unconventional viewpoints on that issue.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Jeez, I hope not! My eldest child (and her cousin) represent our family's fourth generation conceived pre-maritally <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>...'statutory rape'. That phrase is, to me, the third most rediculous circumlocution the legal profession has ever produced,</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Not sure I can agree w/ you here, most kids are too easily manipulated to give informed consent... <B>"The issue that raises my ire is just what I've stated: taking advantage of a person who is not capable of defending themself, and taking the opportunity to twist something that should be the most wonderful thing in the world into an act of enslavement. </B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> Joe... is refusing to take that first step down the road to owning another human being.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm not sure he is that sophisticated. He DOES realize that the relationship his decision to "do it" would engender is not the kind that he wants.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>For this, he is being slandered by certain moral slugs (apologies to the arthropods). I'm sorry, but I won't condone that.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can't condone it either, but slugs are, in fact, molluscs. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>...anyone who can ...still honestly and seriously think that Joe deserves contempt for his choice, has forfeited their right to be a human being. They might walk upright, they might be articulate, they might even be house-broken, but ultimately, they're feral animals - not socialized enough to be trusted, and not natural enough to survive on their own.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, we have to let them make mistakes... I have held opinions in the past that I am now horrified by... and I have learned better. Hopefully, those responsible for Josh's vent will see the reactions we have had to their unpopular opinions, and at the very least, reevaluate them.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2001 3:00 am
by Kiggy
I'm 32, male and still a virgin. Because of that I've been succintly told that I may be gay. Typical "Macho-Latino" response.Well, it just happens that I'm not attracted to males.<P>Whether I'm a virgin by choice, or by "bad luck" as some may say, it's no one else's business, unless I want to share that aspect of my life with someone I trust.<P>*SIGH* You'd think we weould be more understanding here at the dawn of the 21st Century, but NOOOOOO! We're de-evolving into trogs.<P>Just my 2

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2001 8:19 am
by pants
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psiogen:
<B> Nothing wrong with being offensive. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/biggrin.gif">
If you're not offending anyone, you can't being saying anything very interesting.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
While I recognize that this was said at least partly in jest, I have to agree somewhat with the first statement. Just because something is offensive to certain people doesn't make it inherently bad or wrong. As an atheist, I express ideas all the time that many of my religious friends find offensive, but my statements aren't motivated by hatred or any desire to hurt or belittle the other parties. It's <I>that</I> kind of offense that is bad.<P>To sum up: being offensive isn't necessarily bad; being an asshole is. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">