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Postby The_Librarian on Thu Aug 30, 2001 3:56 am

*the Librarian unlurks himself*<P>Why are there people who'll always assume that when somebody undress in front of somebody, sex will follow? Or, should a guy respect a lady and not look at her breasts (or boobs), be labelled as "gay"?<P>And there are also ladies out there who'll refuse to go out with a guy should he not look at their boobs/breasts, or be assertive enough. <P>In the end, those people who respect each other get the best out of their marriages, whilst those who don't respect each other, divorce, divorce, divorce their whole life long.<P>BTW, that punishment meted out to rapists, by cutting off their goolies, will not be tolerated today, because of so called criminals rights. What a load of pure lawn fertilizer! Criminals rights! <P>Anyway, I want to thank Josh for creating such a great comic with a great story that goes with it! <P>*the Librarian goes back into stealth mode*
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Postby PercentMan on Thu Aug 30, 2001 6:46 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Adrian:
<B>anyone who can think about what's happening in the strip, consider what Joe has chosen, and still honestly and seriously think that Joe deserves contempt for his choice, has forfeited their right to be a human being.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This assertion raises fascinating questions: What other acts can cause one to forfeit one's right to be a human being? Actions that are perceived as unethical? Simply holding opinions that are disagreed with by others (as Mr. Adrian would imply above)? Are there states of being in which one forfeits the right to be called human: the elderly, the disabled, those not yet born whose lives we perceive will be "unwanted" or "unhappy"? What person or group becomes the arbiter of who does and does not still hold claim to the right to be a human being? Once it is judged that a "being" is no longer a "human being," how do we ensure that they don't keep trying to exercise this right which they have forfeited (ie, the right to be human)?<P>How strict are these standards? Do I meet them? Do you? If I am able to decide and judge that a given individual does not have the right to be called human, doesn't it logically follow that someone else, someone whose state of being might be more elevated than mine, is able to decide and judge that <I>I</I> do not have the right to be called human? Must I abide by such a decision, even if I disagree with it? How good or right must I be in order to <I>earn</I> the label of "human being"?<P>Are we valuable as living souls for what we do, or for who we are?<P>"Deserves [death]? I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too quick to deal out death in judgment." -- J.R.R. Tolkien<p>[This message has been edited by PercentMan (edited 08-30-2001).]
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Postby RJ Shep on Thu Aug 30, 2001 7:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PercentMan:
<B> ...If I am able to decide and judge that a given individual does not have the right to be called human, doesn't it logically follow that someone else, someone whose state of being might be more elevated than mine, is able to decide and judge that <I>I</I> do not have the right to be called human? Must I abide by such a decision, even if I disagree with it? How good or right must I be in order to <I>earn</I> the label of "human being"?
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This exact issue was brought up in an ep of Stargate SG1 not to long ago. What will happen when we encounter an alien race who's technological development is far in advance of our own, but who's ethical standards are far lower is a common theme in our fiction. (cf. Klingons, ID4, Battlefield Earth, SG1). <P>And when the machines take over, will "human rights" have any meaning at all? <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">
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Postby RJ Shep on Thu Aug 30, 2001 8:07 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PercentMan:
<B> Are we valuable as living souls for what we do, or for who we are?
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What we do IS what we are. I'll try not to get too deep, but imagine what Avalon would be like if it consisted only of the same frame of Ceilidh staring blankly to one side. Frame after frame. Her identity consists of what she does. Simalarly, if I write page after page of physical descriptions of my characters, but they never DO anything, they have no real objective identity. they may as well be an elaborately detailed plywood prop. So it goes with us, albeit on a more complicated level.
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Postby Winkie on Thu Aug 30, 2001 8:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The_Librarian:
<B>
BTW, that punishment meted out to rapists, by cutting off their goolies, will not be tolerated today, because of so called criminals rights. What a load of pure lawn fertilizer! Criminals rights!
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It chills my blood to think there are people here who think that such an atrocity can ever be justified. I was going to reply the standard objections to capital and corporal punishment - that revenge is not justice, that people are sometimes convicted wrongly, etc. - but in this case, they're irrelevant. To deliberately inflict this kind of torture on anyone is nothing other than monstrous.
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Postby Friggin' Cornflakes on Thu Aug 30, 2001 9:42 am

Slightly off topic here... I thought I would spout off something I learned in Psych class. <P>Putting aside the rape vs. murder, or rape-then-murder, the worst crime is child molestation. Okay, so some of you disagree, but here's the reasoning:<P>A large percentage (I forget and I'm not going to make it up) of convicts in US prisons had been molested as children, and most of those men molest children themselves when they reach adulthood. Child molesters are in such danger when they are incarcerated that they need special protection from the other prisoners. <P>And by the way, an Avalon forum is definately not the place to discuss the inethical depths of rape and murder. Yes, you want to express your opinions, but some things are just too dark to brood over in here. It's a comic, you guys! As in, comedy!
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Postby Klaus Petersen on Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:22 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Friggin' Cornflakes:
<B>And by the way, an Avalon forum is definately not the place to discuss the inethical depths of rape and murder. Yes, you want to express your opinions, but some things are just too dark to brood over in here. It's a comic, you guys! As in, comedy! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have to agree with Flakes here. It's nice to see an online forum with deep discussions. However, I think a lot of the posters in this topic have worked eachother up, way too far. <P>Atlas, do you <B>honestly</B> want to reinstate medieval execution practices? You are a dane, fer crying out loud, if you think this way, how can you live with our countrys official position on capital punishment? Are you immigrating, or thinking about going into politics?<P>And the rest of you, what meaningful comparison do you think you can make between rape and murder? You want to tell people who might commit such crimes that they should pick one option over the other? What kind of discussion is this?<P>Get hold of yourselves! <P>The bozo that got chewed out by Josh fully deserved it, and hopefully he is on his way to become a better person for it. With any luck, he'll continue to read Avalon, and these discussions, and be ennobled by it.<P>End rant.
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Postby The_Librarian on Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Winkie:
<B> It chills my blood to think there are people here who think that such an atrocity can ever be justified. I was going to reply the standard objections to capital and corporal punishment - that revenge is not justice, that people are sometimes convicted wrongly, etc. - but in this case, they're irrelevant. To deliberately inflict this kind of torture on anyone is nothing other than monstrous.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm sorry, I should have been a bit more clearer. I don't like capital punishments like hanging, death by injection or the gas chamber, but I object most strongly against these criminals rights which prevents the victim from being protected from the criminal self. The victims rights is being trampled upon by the criminal, even after the incident. <P>Capital punishments are too permanent, and you never are sure afterwards whether the guilty person really was guilty or not.<P>Hope it makes my stand more clearer.<P>Regards<P>
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Postby Lochlainn10 on Fri Aug 31, 2001 8:08 am

I disagree with Cornflakes and Klaus. The Avalon forum, and every other forum I've ever been in, especially comic related, represents one of the best places for intelligent debate on important social issues.<P>Character driven comics like Avalon represent a distillation of everyday life, a necessarily (and needed) stereotype of emotion and society. It allows us to see intent, emotion, and reaction without being hung up on whether or not Ceilidh let the cat out or DD burned the donuts... unless that's important to a character's state.<P>So, with the implications and rants of this thread, the ideas of rape, Joe's sexuality, et. al. are extremely relevant. Josh's rant regarding several...<P>(begin rant warning)<P>... uncouth bottomfeeders is his perogative, as is it ours to post within the defined limitations of this board.<P>The very fact that these losers read Avalon but aren't able to discern basic human motives like respect, dignity, and honor more or less makes it imperative that we DO discuss ethical and moral decisions. To many people, especially those who identify with Avalon more closely than I (I'm long out of high school), an ethical and moral education or even a decent ability to empathize with humanity simply is nonexistant. Murder and rape are based on respect. Respect for human rights and dignity. And those are lacking today.<P>So when genetic throwbacks who can't or won't understand another person's point of view give their opinions, Josh or anybody else, must try to understand them, and teach them, and treat them as they deserve to be treated. Sometimes that means they have to be given the proverbial boot to the head.<P>(end rant)<P>Whew. That's pretty harsh, I guess. I get a little upset at the lack of respect people afford each other.<P>Respect is like money. Pay me some, I'll pay you some. It's an investment. Sometimes, a little can make a big dividend.<P>------------------
Loch<P>---begin CRFH!!! code ---
My last name is really Green... and I was born in April... got an inlaw named Chester... ok, this is getting more than a little wierd.
F U++ !IRC R+ H++ PSL+++ FW S-- FR-- WB- GN+ MW++++ AI+++ D&M+++ !BSL N++ P+++ W++++(!!!) I+ E+++ DOOM+ SOC+++ AF
---end CRFH!!! code ---
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Postby Strangeone on Fri Aug 31, 2001 11:05 am

While I'm not opposed to the death penalty, I wouldn't be upset to see it go. However, I feel that there are certain instances in which the only punishment suitable is death.
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Postby Klaus Petersen on Sun Sep 02, 2001 2:27 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lochlainn10:
<B>I disagree with Cornflakes and Klaus. The Avalon forum, and every other forum I've ever been in, especially comic related, represents one of the best places for intelligent debate on important social issues.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'll bow to that one. After all, why do <I>I</I> find it so important to participate in this discussion at all? If you read my response to TomServo's post - a bit higher up than my response to Cornflakes - I think you will find that we can agree on quite a few things. Maybe not everything, but life is like that. In particular, we agree that the sicko mailer deserved and <B>needed</B> to get chewed out.<P>The point I wanted to get across was basically that this thread had run off track. More specifically, it had turned towards subjects I for one can't connect with any of Josh's posts. This thread also contains posts that I consider downright frivolous, given the extremely grave nature of the subjects of rape and murder. I will not mind a <I>serious</I> debate about these topics, and I might even be a lively participant, especially if e.g. Cornflakes would offer some scientific insight into the subjects.<P>On the topic of crime, punishment, humanity and society, David Adrian brought up Heinleins <I>Starship Troopers</I>. I can wholeheartedly recommend it - a lot of people will find it to be strong medicine, which is as it should be - Heinlein <I>intended</I> it to be strong medicine! You may not agree with the points made, but you will be forced to think about them. I urge you to note that the state and citizens that Heinlein decribe kill entirely without rancor. At the same time, I recommend - for contrast - Larry Nivens short story <I>Patchwork Girl</I>. On the topic of possible non-membership of the human race, read Niven & Pournelles <I>Inferno</I>. If you find <I>Inferno</I> to be frivolous and/or blasphemous, <I>I</I> may have a problem considering you a member of the human race. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif"><P>This thread appears to be running out of steam, and so am I. Whether that's good or bad . . . . .
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