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Postby Ferrett on Sat Apr 14, 2001 7:14 am

now i gotta say this see'n as these are open forums and freedom of speach is a supposed thing...<P>why is it when you oppose someones opinion and quote something from the bible that they are turning around they kick you from there IRC chat... hummm <P>this i wonder... what a bunch of hypocritical assholes... and your lovely Op is such a prick..<P>I did nothing to cause problems THIS time.. and you go and ban me for good.. what type of shit is that....<P>well just goes to show you why we fuck with you guys so much.. what a bunch of ass holes you got..<P>------------------
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Postby Al-Azif on Sat Apr 14, 2001 7:37 am

Just to add a bit of clarification here. Ferrett had been warned previously and told to stay on his best behavior.<P>He kept using "homo" as a derisive term, even after being told to stop.<P>But I think it was this line that pushed him over after a bout with homophobia:
<Ferrett> homosexuals should be strung up<P>I think the IRCop made the correct decision.
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Postby Ferrett on Sat Apr 14, 2001 7:43 am

not... as for homo i said it once where ass others said it a few times...<P>and i wasn't bounced until a good 3 mintues after that when someone said that homosexuals should be able to get married and was try'n to justify it within the bible..<P>where i proptly quoted the bible condeming homosexuality like it does..<P>thats the story<P>------------------
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Postby iguanabob on Sat Apr 14, 2001 7:54 am

I know this is kinda off topic, and probably a really dumb question, but what server is the #avalon channel on?<P>Thank you for your time
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Postby John Campbell on Sat Apr 14, 2001 8:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
<Ferrett> homosexuals should be strung uo
<Tasuki> go ahead and marry...but they shouldn't be aloud to bumm
<Ferrett> homosexuals should be strung up
<Red> Yeah, right. That's why the divorce rate is 50%
<Al-Azif_coloring> Ferrett: just shut up
*** Ferrett has been kicked off channel #avalon by John (John)
*** Ferrett (farrellj@Nightstar-3466.fidnet.com) has joined channel #avalon
<Ferrett> they should be allowed to exsist
<Goosey_The_Safe_Girl> and, it's just making people believe that homosexuality is OKAY and it's RIGHT
<Goosey_The_Safe_Girl> when it isn't
<Goosey_The_Safe_Girl> well that's my opinion
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm a fairly lenient op. I let a lot of stuff slide that I probably shouldn't. But saying that homosexuals should be killed is <B>way</B> over the line.<P>You're lucky it was IRC, Ferrett, because if you'd said that to me in RL, you'd be swallowing teeth right about now. I'm a firm believer in free speech, but statements like that cross out of the range of free expression and into direct threat against the health and wellbeing of homosexuals. And that means against the health and wellbeing of several of my friends. And <I>that</I> I will not stand for.<P>Oh, and note that Goosey, who, as the logs above show, is fairly anti-homosexual herself, is still on the channel and chatting at this moment. She expressed an opinion. You made a threat. Figure it out.<P>edit: leegin' HTML eating my <>s...<p>[This message has been edited by John Campbell (edited 04-14-2001).]
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Postby funky foo on Sat Apr 14, 2001 8:11 am

LOL.. um.. I think it's on Nightstar.. yes.
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Postby Jester Z on Sat Apr 14, 2001 8:29 am

Hello, I see no reason that people shouldn't be able to express their own opinion about the things. In my opinion someone should have changed the subject, or those who didn't want to listen, should have just ignored him, but booting him off is bad.
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Postby Asha on Sat Apr 14, 2001 8:55 am

I love gay people. Everyone should love gay people.
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Postby Jen Aside on Sat Apr 14, 2001 9:04 am

Now, wait, hold on... there's a difference between expressing opinions and outright abusing the general decency of human beings. Changing the subject didn't work, and his behavior was disturbing others. If this person was acting this exact same way in a public restaurant, he would have been "shown the door" exactly the same way.<P>People in charge of a public area--IRL or online--are in charge of the well-being of EVERYONE. Being intentionally disruptive is not productive or courteous to others... and in this case, there certainly could have been better ways to make his opinion known than that.
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Postby iguanabob on Sat Apr 14, 2001 9:24 am

I agree with Jen. There is a fine line between expressing an opinion and outright abusing someone. And i agree with Asha, just because someone is gay is no reason to hate them. Thats a dumb reason to hate someone, it goes in my 'big book of dumb things' right next to racial and sexual discrimination.
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Postby Asha on Sat Apr 14, 2001 9:30 am

Gay is the one true way to nirvana.<P>When people call me a dyke, I feel special.
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Postby mindflame on Sun Apr 15, 2001 1:05 am

ignore him and he'll go away...allow me to apologize for a few of the sinfesters still causing trouble on here...they're morons sometimes.<P>------------------
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Postby krowgoat on Sun Apr 15, 2001 2:54 am

I don't want to get into the legalities of IRC, because I think that everyone has covered that already in this thread. I was not even there at the time this happened, so I can't, in good confidence, say anything about the situation itself; it would not be fair of me to do so (even with the benefit of the log that was posted earlier). There is, however, one thing I would like to say. I have been hanging out in #avalon for a long time, and I've used IRC for three years on a regular basis. I've seen a lot of OPs put up with a lot of crap, and they've handled it well. I've also seen a lot of OPs that are a-holes and kick/ban for no reason. John IS NOT one of those OPs. First of all, we must take into consideration the fact that John has to deal with freaks like us...that in itself is deserving of the OP of the Year Award. Secondly, as John said himself, he is a rather laid back OP. I myself will attest to this. I have *never* seen him kick anyone, even though there have prolly been people who deserve it. Now, like I said before, since I was not present in this particular situation, I can't say whether John was right or wrong (and, as I said before, I don't want to debate the legal questions because I have work to do). However, I can say with good confidence that John has been a great and responsible OP, and that based on that confidence, I find it hard to believe that he would do something out of line. This decision is, of course, my opinion based on observation of John's previous actions, but, having been in #avalon for a while, I think I can put stock in said observation. Anyway, that's my two cents.<P>
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Postby Jen Aside on Sun Apr 15, 2001 3:56 am

Administrators DO, in general, put up with a lot of garbage. I know several who have tried their best to be so laid back, but there's only so much they can put up with. People who flood their Inboxes with questions answered in the FAQ. These same people making threats to the ADMINS because the free service they are providing is temporarily down. People who blatantly ignore the VERY SIMPLE rules, then act like it's World War III when they get thrown out.<P>It's even the same IRL. A rowdy kid in middle school or something like that was disrupting his class, so the principal called a Parent-Teacher conference... only to have the parents yell at the PRINCIPAL for disciplining their kid...!<P>There's only one answer: People Are Stupid. <IMG SRC="http://www.ihs4ever.com/~cwm/kao/msroom/aya.gif"> <P>On a temporarily religious note: I wonder why people care so much about homosexuality, but not at all about Sabbath-breaking. They're both right there, right? Ooo, wait, I know... <IMG SRC="http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/kao/msroom/pu.gif">
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Postby Sterling on Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:04 am

Ozy and Millie save the day, yet again! <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/biggrin.gif"><P>------------------
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R++ S F+ IRC FA-- GA- FF LY+(++) F{ R>++ D>++ MRB+ } rR++(+++) PSL-- P{ DR+++ CJ++ LI+ } a d- B[s{h:w:r}:eBrg:hBk] LS[e(++):h!:y] L{ca} !W
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Postby Symok on Sun Apr 15, 2001 5:49 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by iguanabob:
<B>I agree with Jen. There is a fine line between expressing an opinion and outright abusing someone. And i agree with Asha, just because someone is gay is no reason to hate them. Thats a dumb reason to hate someone, it goes in my 'big book of dumb things' right next to racial and sexual discrimination.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree completly on this aswell! Free speach is a great thing, but IRC channels, other chat rooms, forums and all the other public gathering points for people in online have to be moderated. If you want to make threats and the like, do it in a private place.<P>
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Postby Ferrett on Sun Apr 15, 2001 6:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Campbell:
<B> You're lucky it was IRC, Ferrett, because if you'd said that to me in RL, you'd be swallowing teeth right about now. I'm a firm believer in free speech, but statements like that cross out of the range of free expression and into direct threat against the health and wellbeing of homosexuals. And that means against the health and wellbeing of several of my friends. And <I>that</I> I will not stand for.
[This message has been edited by John Campbell (edited 04-14-2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ya know i wasn't going to post to here until i saw this..<P>Son anytime you think you can step up to the plate in a RL situation with me go on ahead and name a time and place.. <P>I am all for it<P>and as a side note yes i was messing around and a large amount of freinds of mine are homosexual, namely my step daughter..
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Postby AngelKnight2780 on Sun Apr 15, 2001 6:48 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Symok:
<B> I agree completly on this aswell! Free speach is a great thing, but IRC channels, other chat rooms, forums and all the other public gathering points for people in online have to be moderated. If you want to make threats and the like, do it in a private place.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, the problem is that when you start trying to stop hate speech, you wind up on the slippery slope of censorship. Sadly, it's a HUGE problem in American universities today (for an in depth explanation, I suggest you read <u>The Shadow University</u> by Alan Kors.) While such speech is offensive to all people, the simple thing is that it IS protected by the First Amendment in the U.S. (Remember, the ACLU, an organization that defends the Bill of Rights, defended the right of neo-Nazis to peacefully march through the Chicago suburb of Skokie, which had a large number of Holocaust survivors as residents, because to deny them their right of free speech would be wrong.) Remember the words of the Enlightenment-era philosopher Voltaire: "While I may disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it."
And John, as much as I would be tempted to do exactly what you said you would do, violence isn't the answer. We have to counter with better and nobler ideas and ideals, or we become that which we are opposed to. I honestly believe that in the end, love will win over hate. But in order to do that, we need the "marketplace of ideas" to be free.
And finally, one last word to all: When the rights of one person are diminished, no matter the person, no matter the amount, the rights of all are diminished. Remember that the next time you try to deny someone the right to say something you would disagree with your entire being about.<P>Sincerely,
Corey (a.k.a. AngelKnight2780, Angel_Knight on #avalon)
I can be emailed at caf@usc.edu .
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Postby Asha on Sun Apr 15, 2001 7:22 am

Are you kidding me? VIOLENCE IS GREAT! If I saw someone say that and he wasn't twice as big as me I WOULD KICK HIS ASS.<P>God damn STUPID PEOPLE.<P>Homophobia is something I am VERY sensitive about.<p>[This message has been edited by Asha (edited 04-15-2001).]
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Postby Darth Paradox on Sun Apr 15, 2001 7:22 am

Free speech, perhaps. But an IRC channel is not a free, unrestricted forum. It costs money to run IRC servers, but the users get the service for free. However, there are some groundrules, and that is why ops exist.<P>I don't see anyone complaining about people who get kicked after sending twenty lines in five seconds... That's just as much free speech as Ferrett's homophobic rantings. However, the rest of the people on the channel should not have to put up with that, and so the flooder gets kicked. Likewise with Ferrett. It's not a matter of free speech at all, but rather an issue of etiquette towards other users and of the guidelines of IRC.
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Postby Sterling on Sun Apr 15, 2001 7:30 am

AngelKnight: Excuse me if I'm wrong (for I am not a lawyer), but I do seem to recall that the American First Amendment only says that your Federal government (and, by extension through other amendments and stuff, local state governments) cannot pass laws or take action to restrict freedom of speech. Since I somehow doubt the chanop on #avalon is a member of the US government, I don't think the first amendment applies to him/her/it. (It if its a bot. <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/wink.gif"> )<P>I agree that hate speech shouldn't be censored - I don't even agree with government regulations censoring Nazis and the like, as I believe that just lends more credibility to their screwed-up philosophies.<P>Jen (Edit) and Darth Paradox have (/Edit) a point, though. Chanops (and other administrators of online public discussion areas) are generally considered to have a right to set limits on the behavior they'll allow on their channels/forums/MU*s/whatever. In this case, the #avalon admin decided that death threats, especially those levelled towards an arbitrarily designated group of people, would not be tolerated in his/her/its channel.<P>While Ferritt does have a right to expound his/her/its political and social philosophies, I do not believe the chanop of #avalon is required to provide Ferritt with a place to do so.<P>------------------
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R++ S F+ IRC FA-- GA- FF LY+(++) F{ R>++ D>++ MRB+ } rR++(+++) PSL-- P{ DR+++ CJ++ LI+ } a d- B[s{h:w:r}:eBrg:hBk] LS[e(++):h!:y] L{ca} !W
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Postby AngelKnight2780 on Sun Apr 15, 2001 7:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darth Paradox:
<B>Free speech, perhaps. But an IRC channel is not a free, unrestricted forum. It costs money to run IRC servers, but the users get the service for free. However, there are some groundrules, and that is why ops exist.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>True, but the point is that IRC can either be a public or private forum. If it's a public forum, then you can't restrict free speech at all. If it's private, then that has to be made clear.<P>My point is that when you start limiting speech of ANY sort for ANY reason (instead of relying on people to counteract against ideas that they dislike), you wind up on the "slippery slope". We're seeing it in the US all over - it's really bad in the collegiate level, but all the "advocacy groups" that are trying to monitor what's being shown on TV are doing the same thing. And slowly, but surely, we fall into the pit of censorship. Remember, the creation of the CDA (Communications Decency Act) didn't happen in a vacuum - people thought that they could censor the Internet because they thought people wanted it. But we showed that you can't violate the First Amendment.
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Postby Sterling on Sun Apr 15, 2001 7:54 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AngelKnight2780:
<B> True, but the point is that IRC can either be a public or private forum. If it's a public forum, then you can't restrict free speech at all. If it's private, then that has to be made clear.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Umm.... Aren't IRC channels and forums assumed to be private, with content and access under control of the server owner or their designated admins, as servers are private property?
<P>------------------
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Postby funky foo on Sun Apr 15, 2001 8:02 am

I don't want to get into this.. I dont want it to turn out into a fight.. I just want to make it clear that I do NOT hate gays, and that I am not homophobic. I'm just.. a Christian. but trust me some of my best friends are bisexual and what not and I don't say anything to them.. just wanna make that clear. okay bye <IMG SRC="http://www.keenspot.com/KeenBoard/smile.gif">
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